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| Depots 27/09/2012 at 01:15 #35857 | |
Kingham ned
2 posts |
Hi would it be possible to make a depot sim of say old oak common or finsbury park or doncaster for example. thanks for all the hard work Log in to reply |
| Depots 27/09/2012 at 20:20 #35880 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
In short, yes, it is possible. However, what you probably really wanted to know is will such a sim be created? That's a very different and the answer is....well, it depends on several things... Q1) Is the depot actually track circuited and is it signaled? Q2) If it is signaled, is there the relevant data available? Q3) Is someone willing to create a default timetable for it? Q4) Is there a Dev with enough time and interest to actually do it. In answer to some of those questions..... A1) SimSig typically only deals with areas that are signaled. If an area isn't signaled, there isn't likely to be a signaling simulation created for it as what would it be simulating? A2) Chances are if there is data for the area, we probably already have enough to do it (though we certain won't turn down any info on an area, particularly if its historical information). A3) This is not as simple as it seems. Most TT information just have train information into and out of the depots but does not include movements within the depots themselves. This would mean having to build the TT virtually from scratch with lots a shunts (easy Noel.....) A4) Now that's a good question and I don't know the answer to it..... Last edited: 27/09/2012 at 20:21 by Lardybiker Log in to reply |
| Depots 27/09/2012 at 20:43 #35881 | |
58050
2659 posts |
To add further to what Chris has stated above, most loco depots tends to have entry & exit signals only & some are controlled by the relevant PSB covering the area, where as the only one I know from my experience as a loco controller was Toton TMD. The maintenance shift supervisor controlled the GPS that protected all of the dozen or so roads outside the shed as they were classed as the 'depot limits'. Loco movements on all TMDs are ad-hoc, certainly loco movements incolving loco going onto shed roads for maintenance/repair or exams & the same can be said for locos coming off maintenance/repair or exams. The only booked loco movements would be those of traction units going off shed to work trains or coming onto shed after completing there allocated diagram. In any event most TMDs on the railway network operated in different ways. For example Stratford TMD had a man in Stratford outlet who not only communicated with Stratford signal box, but also liased with the Senior Traction Controller at Liverpool Street & advised him the time on or off shed & the loco number. The traction controller would be responsible to advise the maintenance shift supervisor as to whether the loco required maintenance or not. Bescot TMD was signalled from Bescot Down Tower, but once the loco had gone within depot limits the Down Tower signaler wouldn't see it on his pabel anymore. Most of the sims produced by SimSig already have a TMD on them & you pretty much control what the signaler in the real box controls. Cricklewood T&RSMD had a depot box between the TMD & the carriage sidings which fringed with West Hampstead PSB & that controlled movements within the northern end of the TMD & the carriage servicing shed & was an 'NX' panel. The traction arrangers office at Cricklewood depot box was directly below the signalling floor & the traction arranger at Cricklewood would liase with the signaler as to what movements were required. Again very ad-hoc, only timetabled moves were ECS movements to & from St. Pancras/Moorgate & the morning & evening binliner to Forders Sdgs.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 07:40 #35890 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
58050 just about has it right. In the distant past, as a relief supervisor, I occasionally covered the "Outside Foreman" job at Willesden TMD. Only signals around were the depot inlets & outlets - two to the AC lines (one at the North end & one at the South) and one to the DC lines (which was never actually used while I was there). No timetabled moves at all - everything was arranged at the request of the Inside Foreman, Control or the PSB. And - perhaps more to the point - long periods when nothing moved at all, then a series of shunts (that were never the same as anything we'd done before), then back to nowt doing (bar a good brew up) as the M&EE men isolated the OHLE on the depot roads & got on with things. No the most interesting thing to sim, even if there were signals to operate.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 16:08 #35900 | |
lazzer
636 posts |
As a driver who signed Old Oak Common |(I transferred to Plymouth in May), I can confirm that the only parts of it that are track-circuited are the Paddington ends of the entry/exit roads (South 8 to 12, and North 1 and 3). The signaller controls movements off the depot, and the depot shunters set the routes onto the depot from the three entry signals (or the one on the Engine Siding if you've reversed in there). Once a set has gone onto the depot and has passed the depot end of the track circuit, it disappears from the signaller's display. Similarly, sets coming off the depot have to be entered into the system by the shunters, and that is the point at which the headcode pops up on the signaller's display. The signaller is at the mercy of the shunter - I have sat at the exit for 30 minutes before, while the signaller, shunter and Control all talked to each other to try to agree on what my headcode was. The shunter had a different headcode to Control. As to timetabled movements, many a turn sitting spare taught me that a very large number of movements on and off the Oak were the result of ad-hoc decisions made by Control in Swindon. A set would fail at Paddington, and would be sent to the Oak. A set would fail at Paddington, and a spare would be sent from the Oak. A Tuurbo service would be turned into an HST service, requiring a spare set to be brought off. Quite often, whole sets, or even two back-to-back power cars would be sent from the Oak to St. Philip's Marsh or Laira. The sheer complexity of the movements means that any attempt at mirroring the timetable will result in only the sets booked on or off the Oak as part of the day's passenger service. In my experience, there aren't enough of these to provide interest, so you would have to simulate the on-depot shunts. Because the depot is not track-circuited, controlling the movements within would be quite tricky, especially as all of them are ad-hoc. Sets are moved about all over the place between fuelling roads, stabling roads, the HST shed, under-frame wash, wheel lather and the Heavy Maintenance Facility shed. The whole thing would be a work of fiction, and you would have to "invent" track circuit positions. Anyone fancy a go at simulating all of THAT? 
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 16:21 #35901 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
I can remember many years ago playing a game similar to the one you are hoping for. I,m a bit hazy but I believe I played it on an old computer before the days of PC,S and playstations. I do remember one Depot was Old Oak Common and the idea was loco,s came into the Depot for Fuel, Any Exams that needed doing and stabling. You then had to send them out for the1r next turn of duty. Because of the age of the game it was primitive by todays standands but it was fun.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 16:26 #35902 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
When all is said & done it would become very boring very quickly as the number of moves would be limited. There would be no challenge such as regulating traffic to minimize delays. Even Toton TMD which is the biggest TMD on the network during the early to mid 1980s when you had over 100 locos stabled around the shed, some locos never moved all day. The majority of the moves were locos going on or coming off the fuel lines & either stabling in the 3 holding sidings or on the shed front. Just because a depot may have a large allocation of locos or to look at there maybe a lot of locos on shed doesn't necessarily mean there is a constant stream of movements going on all round the clock.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 16:27 #35903 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Colourlight are you thinking of the Shedmaster games produced by SIAM?
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 17:41 #35904 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
...or on the ZX Spectrum, the Depot Master series (Finsbury Park and Old Oak Common) by Ashley Greenup or the Shedmaster series (Bounds Green and Finsbury Park) by DeeKay. If you want a blast from the past and can get your hands on a Speccy emulator these, and other games (including many signalling games) are available from the World of Spectrum Archive project.
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 17:41 #35905 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
as an alternative suggestion (probably suggested before) but marshalling yards or private sidings (eg CEGB boxes) would be an option. imagine kingmoor yard in 1973 for instance, or having scunthorpe west yard chainable to 80s mode south humberside. it would take a hell of a lot of effort to produce a working TT but it is possible. on a side note i can think of cricklewood C.S. and neville hill that have signal boxes (neville hill really only has a shunt panel). and also willesden C.S has a north and south box, but as previously stated, not all of these would be challenging or action packed! "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 17:50 #35906 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Hornsey has or had a box which controlled the carriage sdgs as well as Heaton in Newcastle. When I started work in Liverpool Street Regional Control office in 1990 I spent a day at Ilford Car. Sheds, the yard supervisor controlled the GPS in the yard & in liaison with the maintenance foreman controlled all the shunt moves within the confines of the depot. Signal boxes which just control yards & or depots are getting fewer & fewer, & pretty soon will be a thing of the past.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 17:56 #35907 | |
DriverCurran
688 posts |
Lazzer, Just out of interest, which depot(s) would actually sign Old Oak Common, I as a controller for another TOC find it very frustrating to arrange maybe a stock change over only to be told :- "driver so and so says he doesn't sign that set of sidings" especially when I was a driver and with one or two execptions if you signed the route from A to C and there were sidings or a depot at B then you were automatically required to sign those sidings. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 18:27 #35908 | |
GeoffM
6377 posts |
" said:Hornsey has or had a box which controlled the carriage sdgs as well as Heaton in Newcastle. When I started work in Liverpool Street Regional Control office in 1990 I spent a day at Ilford Car. Sheds, the yard supervisor controlled the GPS in the yard & in liaison with the maintenance foreman controlled all the shunt moves within the confines of the depot. Signal boxes which just control yards & or depots are getting fewer & fewer, & pretty soon will be a thing of the past.Sorry but I beg to differ! The Temple Mills Eurostar depot is mostly signalled and track circuited, controlled from an MCS workstation in the depot somewhere. IIRC Wembley depot (on the Chiltern line), albeit small, is signalled. And the Great Western depot at Reading under construction (or will be) will also have signalling and track circuiting installed within the depot. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 18:40 #35910 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Geoff obviously the railway today has the technology & the advances in signalling software to enable all this, whereas 30 or more years ago it was more difficult or the railway then wasn't prepared to pay the money to have it done. All the money they spent on developing the APT for what ended up as a failure could have been spent on more hi-tech signalling as opposed to carrying on with Victorian era equiptment.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 18:47 #35911 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
58050 said:All the money they spent on developing the APT for what ended up as a failureDidn't a load of that technology used on the APT-P go into the Class 91s? If so then I wouldn't class it as a failure... "Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 19:39 #35913 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
" said:" said:There is a small panel in Wembley Depot that works ground signals and points in the depot area, and grants slots to the South Workstation in Marylebone IECC for trains to enter the depot off the main line.Hornsey has or had a box which controlled the carriage sdgs as well as Heaton in Newcastle. When I started work in Liverpool Street Regional Control office in 1990 I spent a day at Ilford Car. Sheds, the yard supervisor controlled the GPS in the yard & in liaison with the maintenance foreman controlled all the shunt moves within the confines of the depot. Signal boxes which just control yards & or depots are getting fewer & fewer, & pretty soon will be a thing of the past.Sorry but I beg to differ! The Temple Mills Eurostar depot is mostly signalled and track circuited, controlled from an MCS workstation in the depot somewhere. IIRC Wembley depot (on the Chiltern line), albeit small, is signalled. And the Great Western depot at Reading under construction (or will be) will also have signalling and track circuiting installed within the depot. Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 19:48 #35915 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
That's if you think Cl.91s are good locos Sam. Personally the Cl.89 was a far superior machine in every sense.
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 20:19 #35916 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:That's if you think Cl.91s are good locos Sam. Personally the Cl.89 was a far superior machine in every sense.apart from the fact it failed a lot? 
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Depots 28/09/2012 at 20:37 #35920 | |
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john havenhand
58 posts |
imaging doing a basford hall yard sim - would be quite busy with plenty of locos off the FL stabling point
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| Depots 28/09/2012 at 21:01 #35922 | |
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lazzer
636 posts |
" said:Lazzer, Paul, This is an ongoing problem and often leads to Paddington drivers covering moves to and from the Oak which should be done by other drivers. About 18 months to two years ago Bristol drivers were regularly doing two sets to the Oak on a weekday morning. But gradually, we noticed that Padd men were covering it every day. We've since learned that this is because the Bristol drivers don't want to do it. So far as I know, Bristol HSS drivers sign the Oak, but only some - I believe most of them are now signing it off. I think Oxford LTV drivers also sign it. Not sure about Reading. But not ALL of one depot will sign a particular yard. I have yet to work out who SHOULD and DOES sign Laira ... Log in to reply |