Page 1 of 2
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 13:45 #42114 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
What is the official window of time whereby a train is recorded as being on time/early/late? By that I mean if a train has a booked time of departure of 07.45, how many seconds before or after 07.45 does the actual time have to be before it is no longer "on time" and either early or late as the case maybe? Logically right time could be 07.45.00 to 07.45.59 but is it? I can see the argument that it could be 07.44.30 to 07.45.29 or some other 1 minute period based around 07.45- or maybe it's a narrower period than 60 seconds. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 14:00 #42116 | |
vontrapp
210 posts |
This will show you. The first 3 pics are from Genius-mobile for rail staff, the third being Thales rail staff timetables Vontrapp    
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 07/03/2013 at 14:31 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 14:35 #42117 | |
postal
5264 posts |
" said:This will show you.Helpful information but I don't think it addresses the question Peter asked (and it's something I would like to know as well which is why I've butted in). The information also seems to work only on whole minutes although the WTT has 1/2 minute timings. If a train is due to arrive somewhere at 00:01:00 and it arrives as 00:01:59, does that count as on time? And although the public book only uses full minutes, what is the situation with a train due to arrive in the WTT at 00:01:30 (i.e. when does that cease to be on time - is it 00:02:00, 00:02:30 or some other defined time)? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 14:54 #42118 | |
|
vontrapp
210 posts |
There doesn't seem to be any way of finding out, even with TRUST. I would guess that a train has to be a full 1 minute late to be counted as being 1 minute late.
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 16:22 #42121 | |
|
Late Turn
699 posts |
TRUST always rounds down rather than to the nearest full minute, so anything between 07:05:00 and 07:05:59 inclusive would be recorded as 07:05. As a point of interest, booking in TRBs is now done in the same way, whereas previously you'd round up to 07:06 after 07:05:30 - the change being made to ensure consistency with TRUST reporting. Tom Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, vontrapp |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 17:03 #42123 | |
|
Albert
1315 posts |
The delay indicators on Peterborough sim (and probably a few more old sims) are green when there is less than 2 minutes delay (or earliness); one and a half minute is still counted as on time (green). Other sims that use a last reported status instead of the current delay through ARS, also appear to show "On time" until there is 2 minutes of delay.
AJP in games Last edited: 07/03/2013 at 17:04 by Albert Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 17:10 #42124 | |
|
Sacro
1171 posts |
Going by PPM, 5 minutes for London & South East and Regional services, 10 minutes for longer distances. TRUST truncates (ignores) the seconds rather than actually rounding. Based on your example, the latest it could arrive 'on time' is 07:49:59 (or 07:54:59 on a long distance) Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 17:53 #42125 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:This will show you. The first 3 pics are from Genius-mobile for rail staff, the third being Thales rail staff timetablesYes this is the thing I'm talking about where the departure is shown as a minute early at 11.29. Could that in reality be 1 second early 11.29.59? From what Late Turn says I think the answer is yes, which was my primary conclusion when pondering the point. Currently I am logging my daily journey details and that of a particular train that is always late in front of my train at Hitchin. That train is often reported 1min early start from Royston and -1 late at Ashwell - my thought being, does it consistently loose 2 minutes or only around 1 in reality over that short distance. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 18:16 #42128 | |
|
vontrapp
210 posts |
Well, if it rounds the number down, I would think so.
Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 19:06 #42131 | |
|
Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts 
|
Any TDA Clerks on the forum?
Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 19:17 #42132 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:Yes this is the thing I'm talking about where the departure is shown as a minute early at 11.29. Could that in reality be 1 second early 11.29.59?As timeliness is mostly reported by TDs stepping, I do wonder whether some areas have a built in factor to account for the fact that trains may well take a minute or more before the step happens for the train to accelerate from standing and pass the signal. And whether that factor is somewhat pessimistic sometimes, resulting in some departures being recorded as early. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 19:19 #42133 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:Arrival times at Chester seem to take no account of the TD steps. The train will show as arrived even though it's still around Chester South Junction.Yes this is the thing I'm talking about where the departure is shown as a minute early at 11.29. Could that in reality be 1 second early 11.29.59?As timeliness is mostly reported by TDs stepping, I do wonder whether some areas have a built in factor to account for the fact that trains may well take a minute or more before the step happens for the train to accelerate from standing and pass the signal. And whether that factor is somewhat pessimistic sometimes, resulting in some departures being recorded as early. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 20:36 #42134 | |
|
Colourlight
117 posts |
A train is usually considered "late" if it is 3 minutes late or more between Trust reporting points.
Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 21:03 #42136 | |
|
Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:A train is usually considered "late" if it is 3 minutes late or more between Trust reporting points.Considered by whom? Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 21:20 #42137 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
There is also, from a commuter's point of view, a difference between being late by 5 minutes once a week and being 1 minute late every day in a week. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 22:00 #42138 | |
pedroathome
915 posts |
I think that could form another question of its own
Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 22:03 #42139 | |
|
postal
5264 posts |
Network Rail has this to say about punctuality: "How punctuality is measured PPM measures the performance of individual trains advertised as passenger services against their planned timetable as agreed between the operator and Network Rail at 22:00 the night before. PPM is therefore the percentage of trains 'on time' compared to the total number of trains planned. A train is defined as on time if it arrives at the destination within five minutes (ie 4 minutes 59 seconds or less) of the planned arrival time for London and South East or regional services, or 10 minutes (ie 9 minutes 59 seconds or less) for long distance services. Where a train fails to run its entire planned route calling at all timetabled stations it will count as a PPM failure." “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 22:15 #42140 | |
|
Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:"... within five minutes (ie 4 minutes 59 seconds or less) of the planned arrival time for London and South East or regional services, or 10 minutes (ie 9 minutes 59 seconds or less) for long distance services..."Except for the fact that TRUST truncates times, so surely if a train is 5:59 late, it only goes down as 5 late, therefore is within PPM. Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 22:29 #42141 | |
|
John
884 posts |
No, if a train is 5 minutes late it is outside PPM. If it's 4 minutes 59 seconds it's inside PPM. Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 22:33 #42143 | |
|
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:" said:5:59 is not "within five minutes". Random Google dictionary result: "[within:] before (a period of time) has elapsed" (WED)."... within five minutes (ie 4 minutes 59 seconds or less) of the planned arrival time for London and South East or regional services, or 10 minutes (ie 9 minutes 59 seconds or less) for long distance services..."Except for the fact that TRUST truncates times, so surely if a train is 5:59 late, it only goes down as 5 late, therefore is within PPM. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 07/03/2013 at 23:53 #42144 | |
|
postal
5264 posts |
I don't see anything inconsistent or contradictory in the points that have been made. As the Network Rail site says "A train is defined as on time if it arrives at the destination within five minutes (ie 4 minutes 59 seconds or less) of the planned arrival time for London and South East or regional services, or 10 minutes (ie 9 minutes 59 seconds or less) for long distance services" then NR could well use TRUST, drawing their data from a back-office calculation based on trains greater than 4 or 9 minutes late in the TRUST data.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 08/03/2013 at 00:00 by postal Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 08/03/2013 at 09:02 #42146 | |
|
Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:" said:Yes this is the thing I'm talking about where the departure is shown as a minute early at 11.29. Could that in reality be 1 second early 11.29.59?As timeliness is mostly reported by TDs stepping, I do wonder whether some areas have a built in factor to account for the fact that trains may well take a minute or more before the step happens for the train to accelerate from standing and pass the signal. And whether that factor is somewhat pessimistic sometimes, resulting in some departures being recorded as early. That's correct, Geoff - there's often an offset built in to report arriving trains a predetermined time after the TD steps into the platform berth (so usually when it passes the last main signal before the station), and to report departures similarly before it steps out of the berth. That might explain what's happening at Chester too. Around our way, it's most obvious for trains coming off the Up Slow at Syston North Jn, around the north curve at 10mph then passing Syston East Jn - all in the same signal section. It reports at East Jn as soon as it passes the signal at North Jn, but with around a two minute offset - so at 15:36 (for example), TRUST shows it having passed East Jn at 15:38. Looks a bit odd until you realise what's gone on! To pick up on the points about PPM calculations - this has to use TRUST data in some form, surely, as that's all that's really available! Tom Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 08/03/2013 at 10:18 #42147 | |
|
kbarber
1742 posts |
Oh the complications of the privatisation era 'performance regime' and the delights of computerisation. As Tom says, we used to regard the minute as changing at the 30 second mark, so a TRB entry for 00:00:29 would be booked as 00:00 and for 00:00:31 as 00:01. Then we used to report trains to Control by phone every so often (usually Control would ring for some times when things were quiet). I don't know about other areas but Euston had a concept known as a 'rough tick', which applied to any train recorded up to two minutes late (and I understand it was used by the old Euston PSB as well). But then we didn't have an army of lawyers chasing everyone else in sight for pennies... Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 08/03/2013 at 10:25 #42148 | |
|
Aurora
183 posts |
" said:What is the official window of time whereby a train is recorded as being on time/early/late? Depends on the operator. Here in Sydney we have 4 minutes and 59 seconds before it is considered late. Well, for our Suburban trains anyway. [sup]EDIT: 100th post! [/sup] Nil. Last edited: 08/03/2013 at 10:27 by Aurora Log in to reply |
| When is a train "on-time" 08/03/2013 at 11:38 #42152 | |
|
dwelham313
139 posts |
" said:
This is an FCC timetabling anomaly - off peak trains get 5 mins to do Royston - Ashwell, peak time trains get 4! And if said peak trains start back from the down platform it takes longer to get to speed because of the 25mph crossover. There are several in the evening from Ely/Kings Lynn that make additional stops to Hitchin and the timetable is so tight it isn't un-common to be running 10 late at Hitchin. Last edited: 08/03/2013 at 11:38 by dwelham313 Log in to reply |