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| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 08:40 #45882 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Just wondering (not being a signaller by profession) what the accepted practice is regarding how early should a route be set, assuming no likelihood of conflict with another train? E.g., The current time is 10.00. A train's timetable lists a departure time from a station as 10:20. No other traffic is expected on that route within that time. Should the signaller set the route (clearing the starting signal) now, or wait, say, till 5 mins prior to departure (10:15), or wait till 10:20 on the dot, or wait for a TRTS from that platform? Looking forward to some interesting reminiscences in reply to this question.  I did search the forum but so far have found nothing relating to this particular topic. Thanks. Last edited: 22/06/2013 at 08:41 by maxand Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 08:56 #45883 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
A lot depends on how busy an area is I think. I used to be a driver at Oxford which is a notorious bottleneck with only 2 through platforms which could be a nightmare when things were busy with lots of trains about or delays. With trains sometimes having to cross all running lines from the Down Carriage Sidings to get in to either Platform 1 or 3 there could be up to 4 trains waiting to head up line and quite often all were delayed awaiting a path across from the DCS if it was busy.
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| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 09:00 #45884 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
If you can be absolutely certain that there'll be no conflicting move before time, it'd be fine to set it sooner rather than later. Twenty minutes is a bit too soon though, perhaps - a lot can happen in that time. The option to tell the Driver that you'd like to replace his signal to Danger would help there, of course. If in doubt though, wait for the TRTS if provided - that approach won't delay anything. Your question reminds me of the early-running freight that we sometimes get in the night. I'm happy to keep them running early towards Peterborough as long as they're in their path (i.e. if they were held to time at Helpston, they wouldn't delay anything following). If they're really early though (more than an hour), sometimes something that's meant to go first will be overdue at its origin (often a sign that it won't run at all), but could still make Helpston before the booked time of the early runner. Again, how early is too early?! (In that case, time to refer it to Control for further consideration!) Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 09:32 #45885 | |
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jwsetford
164 posts |
" said:If you can be absolutely certain that there'll be no conflicting move before time, it'd be fine to set it sooner rather than later. Twenty minutes is a bit too soon though, perhaps - a lot can happen in that time. The option to tell the Driver that you'd like to replace his signal to Danger would help there, of course. If in doubt though, wait for the TRTS if provided - that approach won't delay anything.As late turn said wait until TRTS kicks in but as some sims dont have TRTS, Id aim for about a minute. Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 11:44 #45887 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
It is also important to try where possible to give trains green signals rather than more restrictive aspects. A "distant check" where a train sees a yellow will often put two or three minutes time into him, so it is well worth giving them greens. This is more the case nowadays with defensive driving techniques. Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 12:45 #45889 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Late Turn wrote: Quote: The option to tell the Driver that you'd like to replace his signal to Danger would help there, of course.In SimSig as it stands there is no option to do this AFAIK, unless the driver telephones the signaller, which he is unlikely to do unless there is a train problem. Replacing the signal wouldn't achieve anything unless I as signaller cleared it too early, in which case (there being no option to contact the driver) I would incur an ACOA as well as a 120 second penalty (unless the penalty expired before scheduled departure time). Quote: As late turn said wait until TRTS kicks in but as some sims dont have TRTS, Id aim for about a minute.Yes, a minute seems about right to me, in keeping with the general philosophy that all signals should be set (red) until a route is created through them. Last edited: 22/06/2013 at 12:51 by maxand Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 13:01 #45890 | |
guyh
54 posts |
I'd pretty much agree with what people have said so far. It is really a matter of signaller's discretion. If there is likely to be something "popping up" at the last minute, then you'd want to leave it until close to departure time. Once you've set the route, in many places there are no options to get in touch with the driver to request replacement. But in locations where you can see what's approaching for miles / end of a branch line etc etc, there's no harm if you can see that nothing can get there in time to be a problem. The other perspective is that the signaller doesn't want to cause any delay - and if controlling a reasonably large area, it is easy to forget a train, so if there's only 5-10 mins to go it's actually better to set the route rather than get called up 2 mins after departure time. And if you work in an area with poor infrastructure reliability (seems often to be the case on SimSig sessions!) then the earlier you set the route, the earlier you know about any points failures.... Sure, the train could fail / suffer some defect, in which case the driver is *supposed* to call the signaller before doing anything else. If there is TRTS then it is better to use that as the reminder, and leave setting the route until the TRTS is received. Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 13:08 #45891 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:Late Turn wrote: Correct, of course. I think this highlights one of the occasions when such a feature might be helpful - sometimes you might prefer to pull off early for a train, perhaps to avoid forgetting it whilst you deal with a challenge elsewhere on the panel, only to find that the situation has changed unexpectedly (some sort of failure?) and you need to make another move first. " said: Yes, a minute seems about right to me, in keeping with the general philosophy that all signals should be set (red) until a route is created through them. This, and my previous answer referring to TRTS, assumes that you were referring to a train booked to stop. As Stephen points out, if it's not booked to stop, you ought to be setting the route in time to avoid unnecessary restrictive aspects, obviously considering the effect of any approach control and regulating for anything else that needs to run first. Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 15:19 #45900 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
When I lived in Edinburgh about 10 years ago I would regularly use Waverley station as a shortcut, and would often see the up starting signal from platform 1 pulled off a good 20-30 minutes before a departure was due - occasionally I waited assuming there must be a non-passenger train coming through only to be disappointed. Platform 1 was at that time the quietest part of the station - this was just before Newcraighall opened. Nowadays I spend a fair amount of time changing trains at Temple Meads and pick up a little on the signallers' behaviour. There's a fairly distinct divide between those who will set a route as soon as they're confident what needs the road next, and those who wait for TRTS. Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 18:21 #45907 | |
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Mr Mystery
25 posts |
" said:Nowadays I spend a fair amount of time changing trains at Temple Meads and pick up a little on the signallers' behaviour. There's a fairly distinct divide between those who will set a route as soon as they're confident what needs the road next, and those who wait for TRTS.I've noticed this at Coventry, where there are a lot of express and local trains with very little time in between. If one is late while the other is on time, some signallers seem to confidently predict which one will be set first, other times they will wait till the very last minute. Though saying that, at Birmingham International once, a fast train was delayed and expected to arrive (at platform 2) at the same time a slow train was booked to depart from platform 3. The route for the slow train was cleared. The next moment I looked, the platform 3 signal was back to red and the platform 2 signal was green (before the fast train arrived). Even the platform staff didn't know what was going on. So it's probably best to wait before setting a route.
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| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 21:29 #45918 | |
Temple Meads
307 posts |
" said:If there is TRTS then it is better to use that as the reminder, and leave setting the route until the TRTS is received.I disagree, although I accept that it is very much a matter of personal opinion I've just always felt that TRTS is more of a reminder than anything else (unless there is a level crossing immediately ahead of the signal, in which case waiting for TRTS is a good idea) Username TIM in multiplayer Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 22:23 #45923 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Probably one of the main benefits of waiting for TRTS (without a level crossing to think about) is that, if the train's delayed for some reason, you might find a margin to make a quick move that'd otherwise have to go after the departing train - at least if they normally bell out two minutes before time. Simsig's generous in that you'll often find out about such delays some time ahead of booked departure, of course, negating that benefit somewhat!
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| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 22:30 #45925 | |
jc92
3688 posts 
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regards TRTS, in SimSig a train rings out 30 seconds before departure, but in real life, despatch takes (on paper) 30 seconds, so really a train needs a proceed aspect around 30 secs before booked time, to give the platform staff time to wave a paddle. equally in real life TRTS is often pointless when, for instance at sheffield, the despatcher will ring out a XC service before its even come to a halt! "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 22:34 #45926 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:I remember watching the IECC screens at the NRM and noticed that TRTS was often sent at York before a train arriving at Platform 4 (and possibly others) had even stopped. I'm quite surprised they did that, especially as York IECC has ARS, which then immediately set the route out of the station. Out of interest, does the starter have to be off before the doors can be closed (assuming the train has a guard)? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 22:38 #45927 | |
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dwelham313
139 posts |
I agree with Temple Meads, although it is a matter of personal opinion I prefer to set the route in advance of the TRTS. I also find that on the sims the TRTS comes rather late - as in at the departure time of the train! At Kings Cross for instance as a rule TRTS is given for FCC trains 3 minutes prior to departure and East Coast 5 minutes in advance. It can take 2 minutes to ensure all doors are closed and secured on an HST - this procedure can't begin until the signal is off. If the departure time is 12:00, the dispatchers aim is for wheels to be rolling at 12:00:01 so TRTS would need to be given at least a couple of minutes in advance. Thats why I prefer not to wait for it!
Last edited: 22/06/2013 at 22:39 by dwelham313 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CTCThiago |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 22:50 #45928 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
SimSig has a standard set of "rules" irrespective of the train, so variances between TOCs and train type are not accounted for. When to pull off is down to the individual signalman and the location. I know of places in reality where the signal is pulled off whenever the route is clear, and others where Signalmen religiously wait for TRTS. There are also places where I have known Signalmen ignore TRTS because of issues with it being pressed prematurely with the operator not bothering to check that the train is ready, but this will not be an issue in SimSig. Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 23:01 #45929 | |
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Underwood
748 posts |
I'm more on the opposite to Temple Meads, kind of! For terminals, I wait for TRTS to be given. Say at Brighton, waiting for the 1019 Victoria to leave, I will only set the route until TRTS is given, as from the panel I can't see if the driver is even in the cab or if it's not quite ready yet. That way any delay in departure means I can still route other trains around the station throat. For non terminal stations that have TRTS, I will await TRTS if a train is splitting or joining. The message box tells you if it's joined or divided but in reality you would't know if the train has joined or split successfully (something I learnt from a signaller). Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 22/06/2013 at 23:18 #45930 | |
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wills1989
6 posts |
" said:" said:Just on the topic of having the starting signal off before closing the doors, as a serving guard I always wait for the starter to be off before I close the doors, dispatchers will always wait for this in stations too, as the danger of misinterpreting signals can lead to a safety incident, better to be safe than sorry :)I remember watching the IECC screens at the NRM and noticed that TRTS was often sent at York before a train arriving at Platform 4 (and possibly others) had even stopped. I'm quite surprised they did that, especially as York IECC has ARS, which then immediately set the route out of the station. Out of interest, does the starter have to be off before the doors can be closed (assuming the train has a guard)? Will Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 23/06/2013 at 10:09 #45944 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
Am I right in thinking drawing up to a red on the end of a platform is banned these days?
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| How early should a route be set? 25/06/2013 at 11:07 #46011 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
If I understand the rules right, train dispatch is not permitted until a signal at the platform end has been cleared (help prevent 'ding ding & away' accidents); if I recall correctly this was a change that came in after Bellgrove (or perhaps Newton). TRTS used to be less common than it is now. Certainly didn't exist at Marylebone when I was there; we just pulled off sometime around departure time (and used our discretion if an arriving train was early). Another place where the bobby just pulled off was Enfield Town. The timetable had the arriving train in just before the departure was due out, every 1/2 hour through the day. Sometimes the arrival would be a minute or two late so the bobby would pull off for the up road first, which sometimes led to great anguish for both drivers... (The reason was that Enfield was known for 'illegal changeovers'. The arriving driver was often booked PNB (Physical Needs Break) but it was common for 2 drivers to swap the 2nd half of a shift, so the arriving man nipped across and took the departure out while his mate got away early. Which was fine until the departure was from platform 1 and the outgoing route that had been set conflicted with the route the incoming train needed into 2. By the time the signalman had given the departure a while to move, the supervisor had walked across and found no outgoing driver then gone back to his office and told the bobby, and the approach locking had timed out, both trains were about 10 minutes late. So in due course the Control Log landed on the Operations Clerk's desk in the area office, the wheels ground into motion and the Form 1s made their way to Enfield Depot. But that's another story and probably of little interest to the signalmen...) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, UKTrainMan, BarryM, guidomcc |
| How early should a route be set? 06/07/2013 at 12:43 #46613 | |
pedroathome
915 posts |
" said:At Temple Meads, I think I have seen them radio the PSB rather than use TRTS once or twice. Not sure if this is standard practice or not, or if I have misunderstood what was happening. Usually, trains I catch from there have the route pulled off near enough when they have arrived. The PSB there is literally just behind the station, on two of the former platforms EDIT ===== Down trains at Exeter St Davids also appear to have the route pulled off on arrival. Dont think I have seen a train approach there to a red, apoart from a Down Central reversing to head towards Dawlish, Newton Abbot, etc, or from that direction onto the Up Central James Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 12:46 by pedroathome Log in to reply |
| How early should a route be set? 06/07/2013 at 12:49 #46614 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
PSB = Power Signal Box? Are you saying the station staff can actually set a route by radioing the PSB?
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| How early should a route be set? 06/07/2013 at 12:54 #46616 | |
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pedroathome
915 posts |
" said:PSB = Power Signal Box? Are you saying the station staff can actually set a route by radioing the PSB?I dont know how it worked. Like I said, I think I have seen them radio them to say when a train is ready to go out. Again,as I said, I might of misunderstood what was going on, and could have been to another member of platform staff further up operating the TRTS. That part I dont know for certain. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| How early should a route be set? 06/07/2013 at 12:59 #46617 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:PSB = Power Signal Box?Yes Quote: Are you saying the station staff can actually set a route by radioing the PSB?I think Pedroathome was referring to a walkie-talkie type system, whereby station staff (for whatever reason), have verbally given TRTS to the signaller rather than using the buttons on the platforms. Possible reasons include defective equipment, or information being given to the signaller that may influence how he deals with the train. Only signallers can set routes, or all hell would break loose! EDIT: Pedroathome posted while I was typing. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 06/07/2013 at 12:59 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| How early should a route be set? 06/07/2013 at 13:00 #46618 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
" said:PSB = Power Signal Box? Are you saying the station staff can actually set a route by radioing the PSB?If they use back-to-back radios and the signaller has one, then they could ask for the road over the radio I suppose. However not all stations use radios and, where they do, the box may not have a radio or may be too far away for one to be effective. For example we weren't allowed a station radio in the powerbox I worked because our LOM thought we might become drawn into stuff which didn't concern us - a valid worry in some ways. We did use back to back radios to communicate with the S&T though. TRTS was a hit and miss affair where I was, most station staff didn't bother with it and as a result most signallers gave the road 2 mins before departure time regardless of whether the TRTS had been recieved. There were occasional campaigns of trying to make the station boys use the buttons by local management but they always reverted to not bothering after a few weeks. With some sets of empties it was usually possible to get rid of them significantly early amd this was the custom which had grown up. Some signallers would just pull the road off 30-odd minutes early and cross their fingers but I always used to wait for a phone call from the driver to say he was ready before giving the road. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |