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| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 30/04/2014 at 17:58 #59845 | |
58050
2660 posts |
This is just a heads up for all those members of SimSig who enjoy running the timetables I create. I've decided to be more accurate when creating 'Train Types' with the proper/actual train formations used by British Railways in the 1980s by showing the 'TAG' order of the trains(& I'm not talking about graffiti). I've got in mky collection several 'Freight Train Marshalling Books' covering various years & give detailed information of the order of the train consist. One of my responsibilities when I was working at Paddington for the British Railways Board was to look after & update the TOPS 'Tagging Table'. TOPS as most people know stands for 'Total Operating Processing System' In the 1970s a team from British Rail traveled to the USA as the 'TOPS' system was created by Southern Pacific' & there are still some Southern Pacific anecdotes still in the system today. Words such as CARKIND, CARINO & SPDEST. CARKND was the americanism for wagon type & SPDEST was Southern Pacific Destination, can't remember CARINO. British Rail rolled out TOPS in 1975. Now all wagons on the TOPS system pick up what is termed a 'TAG' which is a 3 digit code both numerical & alphabetical. Most TAGS tend to have the TOPS TRA(Tops Reporting Area) in the TAG. The TOPS system uses a language called 'TOPS TRANN' & I've only ever seen a book on sale in a shop in Praed Street near Paddington station way back in 1990, I contemplated buying it, but wasn't sure if it was the same as what is used in TOPS. Now when wagons are released either loaded or empty they pick up a TAG & a subsequent TOPS STANNOX(STANNOX = Station Number another americanism). Wagons of the same TAG are then marshalled together in yards & forwarded on booked timetabled freight trains & then subsequently shunted/re-marshalled in yards before going forward. Listed below is an example of a train taken from the 1981 London Midland region Marshalling of Freight Trains book for:- 6S73 0855 SX ABS Dover to Dundee(03060 - Dundee Stannox) 1. 72B Willesden South 2. 522 Temple Mills 3. 03X Dundee 4. 032 Perth 5. 06X Sighthill 7. 092 Carlisle 8. 352 Warrington 9. 332 Trafford Park 10. 363 Edge Hill 11. 652 Bescot 12. 132 Tyne 13G TCFD 13. 042 Millerhill 14. 432 Stoke 15. 726 Willesden North At Willesden Brent Sdgs 72230 Detach 1 & 2 & 15. Attach & forward 1. 03X Dundee 2. 032 Perth 3. 06X Sighthill 4. 072 Mossend incl. 073 Mossend 5. 092 Carlisle 6. 352 Warrington 7. 332 Trafford Park 8. 363 Edge Hill 9. 652 Bescot 10. 132 Tyne 13G TCFD 11. 042 Millerhill 12. 432 Stoke At Bescot 65700 Detach sections 9 to 12, attach & leave 1. 03X Dundee 2. 032 Perth 3. 04B Bathgate 4. 06X Sighthill 5. 072 Mossend incl. 073 Mossend 6. 092 Carlisle 7. 352 Warrington 8. 332 Trafford Park 9. 363 Edge Hill At Warrington W.O. Jn. 35551 Detach 7 to 9 attach & depart 1. 03X Dundee 2. 032 Perth 3. 05L Larbert 4. 04B Bathgate (from Bescot only). 5. 06X Sighthill 6. 07E Lugton 7. 072 Mossend Incl. 073 Mossend 8. 092 Carlisle At Carlisle 09150 Detach 8 attach & leave 1. 03X Dundee 2. 032 Perth 3. 05L Larbert 4. 042 Millerhill 5. 04B Bathgate 6. 06X Sighthill 7. 07E Lugton 8. 072 Mossend incl. 073 Mossend ex Willesden At Mossend 07360 Detach 4 to 8 At Larbert 05009 Detach 3 At Perth 03140 Detach 2 So you can see the 'TAGs' as the the 3 digit code. Not all freight trains apper in the 'Marshalling of Freight Trains Book' those such as MGR trains don't, but that doesn't mean when loaded or empty they don't pick up a TAG. Block trains also pick up TAGs but not all of them are listed in these books. But instead of just putting in for a speedlink train a generic description such as Cl.47/0+assorted 2 axle & bogie wagons, if the train appears in the book then I'll describe it as Cl.47/0+(followed by whatever TAGs are shown in the book. So if the train calls into a yard for re-marshalling then the consist will show the order of the wagons in the train. I suppose the million dollar question is how accurate do you want it? Something else to debate no doubt. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Pinza, CABOOSEMAN, maxand |
| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 30/04/2014 at 18:16 #59846 | |
kbarber
1764 posts |
That brings back memories! Some of the tags had changed by the time I went to the Brent (1983); if memory serves, Willesden South was 728 and Willesden North was 723. Of course, that was what Dover saw them as. When the shunt list was printed off at the Brent, 728 had probably morphed into a mix of 732 (Acton Yard), 722 (Willesden - could include South West Sidings, Sudbury, Willesden TMD, Euston, wherever), 632 (the Midland - Cricklewood, Brent, perhaps even Marylebone although nowt for there would ever be on 6S73) and perhaps one or two others. I think in general, the tags were specified to make shunting easier at the yards. So there would be tags for some of the long-distance traffic that needed marshalling together so that it wouldn't have to be remarshalled at intermediate yards. Some trains just ran rough marshalled, particularly the round-London trips. (The evening arrival from Temple Mills was a particular horror, everything tagged 722 at Temple Mills but when the shunt list came off at the Brent it was a whole series of alternating 562 and 652 (Toton and Bescot), usually empty coal hoppers. We considered ourselves lucky to have as many as 2 adjacent wagons with the same tag! You can imagine what the shunters had to say...) Incidentally, when I was a signalman on the West London line 6S73 was the invariable signal to the early turn men that relief was at hand. Thanks for this... makes me feel quite nostalgic. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: CABOOSEMAN, Pinza |
| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 30/04/2014 at 19:36 #59848 | |
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58050
2660 posts |
I just picked 6S73 from the book, but I certainly remember the tagging when I was at Whitemoor TOPS office in 1988. Whitemoor TOPS was responsible for the polybulk grain wagon fleet. In variably when they were relesed empty they'd all pick up 462 TAG for Whitemoor as Whitemoor yard stannox was 46200. All of the overnight speedlink services from Scotland had empty polybulks on them such as 6L86, 6L81 & 6L97. I remember creating shunt lists for inwards services. 'KV N ; W' IIRC was the TOPS input & the 'W' referred to Whitemoor as each main marshalling yard had its own yard shunt plan built into the TOPS system. When I was in the data support section at MacMillan House at Paddington I used to go to Blandford House at Marylebone 2 or 3 times a week where the TOPS mainframe was kept to collect mainframe printouts of the tagging table & then go through it adding, deleting or amending tags. When you think about it it was quite an efficient system. I've often wonder whther Southern Pacific still use there original version of TOPS albeit more advanced today than back in the 1970s, 1980s. I know the french railways used a system called 'HERMES' as certain mchines in Railfreight International were cleared to access 'HERMES' to asscertain where wagons were in France. 6S96 1348 SX SLK Harwich Parkeston Quay - Mossend marshalled from Whitemoor:- 1. 07V Law Jn. 2. 072 Mossend 3. 082, 08Q, 092 Carlisle 4. 042, 031, 022 Millerhill 5. 132, 13G Tyne 6. 232 Doncaster This train always ran with a length of 70SLUs, the loading for a Cl.47 was 1,340 tonnes trailing & the Doncaster portion was always loaded cartics which originated from Harwich with imported cars. The Law Junction traffic behind the loco were usually 3 loaded VDA wagons full of soup from Cambells soups factory at King's Lynn. The Mossend portion & Millerhill portion usually consisted of loaded polybulks of grain for the scottish whisky distillers destined for Roseisle, Burghead or Elgin. Weelday evenings were very busy at Whitemoor with about 8 or 9 speedlink trunk services & also additional ones in the summer due to the heavy grain traffic. The departure order in the evening was always 6S96 to Mossend first, followed by 6S93 which conveyed loaded wagons of petfoods from Spillers factory at Wisbech. 6E16 Duxford to Tees usually with a Cl.37 off thornaby & conveyed chemicals traffic from Ciba-Geigy at Duxford. 6S71 was the second speedlink departure for Mossend, again with a long train & always worked by a Cl.47. Then you had 6E13 Harwich Parkeston Quay to Doncaster speedlink services which tended to convey any traffic that you couldn't accomodate on 6S96 or 6S71. 7O90 Whitemoor to Eastleigh which ran via Willesden Brent Sdgs, always worked by a pair of Cl.31s. Then you had 2 speedlink services bound for the Western region, 6V85 Whitemoor to Gloucester & 6V14 Whitemoor to East Usk & the last evening departure was 6M90 Whitemoor to Warrington Arpley. Also you had a speedlink coal network service to Toton which always had a Cl.37 with empty HEA wagons bound for Toton. Not long after 6M90 departed Whitemoor you had the first arrival of the night which was 6L96 again with a single Cl.37 on it with the best part of the whole train being empty cartics bound for Ripple Lane or Harwich. I think the Tagging system on TOPS worked very well & no doubt is still in use today. Happy days. There used to be a famous saying within the freight sector & that was 'ALL EMPTIES TO WHITEMOOR', don't know if you ever heard that at Willesden Brent Sdgs? Last edited: 30/04/2014 at 19:41 by 58050 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CABOOSEMAN |
| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 01/05/2014 at 19:26 #59910 | |
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Pinza
106 posts |
" said:That brings back memories!Thanks to both 58050 and kbarber for above posts. Hmm, back in nostalgia mode myself now - I was TOPS clerk at Willesden in the early to mid 1980s and spent my days (or mainly 12 hours nights  )on the Brent Yard Speedlink desk.<You can imagine what the shunters had to say...)> Ha! Let alone the tired and frustrated TOPS clerk who had to 'virtually' shunt the train when the wagons were all the same type. I was an expert on the KP 3 1 ; 1 procedure! I worked in a grotty Portakabin just off the North Circular in Stonebridge Park and the wall above my desk was 'wallpapered' with the Tag tables that 58050 refers to opening post! I have a photo somewhere that I will try to find. As alluded to, tags updated as the train progressed between marshalling yards. ie any wagon leaving Willesden for the Birmingham area would just be 'tagged' 652 as far as we were concerned. As soon as train left us, Bescot would receive a shunt list with more localised tags for wagons due to be detached at their yard. Depended on TOPS clerks entering the correct 'setout' card for splits en-route: 1) Guess 'setout' terminology came from the American source of TOPS 2) The 'card' terminology comes from the fact that TOPS started in the dark ages of using printed cards. I started at Willesden TOPS just after they went 'cardless' - about the last office to do so I think. Actually a much easier system than what replaced it. In original implementation, when train left previous yard, the next TOPS office enroute would receive a pack of cards = one card per wagon with number, commodity conveyed, destination and tag. When yard supervisor told you how wagons had been shunted, you just laid them out onto relevant siding on map of your yard - as if you were a gambling croupier! As soon as forward train was ready to depart, you just picked up that 'deck of cards'from that departure siding and fed them into a card reader and next yard would receive a new deck of cards. Fell down a bit if previous TOPS Office (Dover or Hoo Jm in 6S73 case) didn't put correct 'Setout Card' for wagons due to be detached at Willesden 72230 - we'd then get rubbish tags! Sorry, waffling! Great idea - not sure how it can be implemented in SimSig though? PS With regards to 'messy' consists that Keith referred to, I used to save the shunters (and myself) a lot of work by manually re-assigning destinations of wagons to keep whole sections together - using the 'frowned upon' TK procedure! Last edited: 01/05/2014 at 19:35 by Pinza Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 58050 |
| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 01/05/2014 at 20:12 #59917 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
"Set-out" is definitely a term used here in the US. Having been involved in prototypical operations on model railways over here, I can confirm that the term "set-out" is used to describe removing a wagon (known as a "car" regardless of type) from a consist.
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| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 01/05/2014 at 20:23 #59918 | |
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58050
2660 posts |
The way I'm thinking of consisting freight trains in the 'Train Types' field of the timetable is something aklong the lines of:- 'Cl.47/0+352+565+592+451' along those lines so if you chain a set of sims together the train consist would alter as the train continued on its journey. At the moment I've got 'Marshalling of Freight Trains' books for LMR(1981), LMR(1982), ER(1983), ER(1988) & ER(1990). Therefore if I do a timetable covering those years I can refer to the relevant book & copy the formation from it. These books not only do Speedlink trains, but Freightliners & other Cl.6, Cl.7, Cl.8 & Cl.9 trains. To me it looks a bit more realistic than having a generic consist for Speedlink trains as 'Cl.47/0+assorted 2 axle & bogie wagons' & the only way to differentiate the consist would be the length limit of the train in SLUs. Temple Mills shunters hadn't improved that much when I was in Stratford ROC in 1994 as they managed to consist the Temple Mills - Toton service wrong much to the disbelief of Nottingham control. At least when I was at Whitemoor TOPS in 1988 they didn't make those kind of errors. I've still got about 3 or 4 TOPS handbooks which list the TOPS enquiries & proceedures. One thing I missed when they converted over to the TOPSCICS sustem they use today was the assist table which you loaded by typing in 'NR 1 T' IIRC so whenever you type in the #09' line it automatically moved the cusor without you having to press the space bar & inserted the word 'SETOUT' so you only had to type in the 5 digit TOPS STANNOX number. It also automatically moved the cursor for every '06' entry for locos & '02' entries for wagon numbers. I was the first person at Whitemoor TOPS to be trained on the TOPSCICS machine which was installed first on the Cambridge/King's Lynn desk. Seems all a long time ago now. Log in to reply |
| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 02/05/2014 at 09:42 #59924 | |
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58050
2660 posts |
Looking through a TOPS enquiry handbook I have the term 'CARINO' from my 1st post stands for wagon initial & number, 'SPDEST' stands for final destination(originally known as Southern Pacific destination) & 'CARKND' stands for wagon type (3 alpha code) such as HAA or FLA etc etc.
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| Freight Train Consists in my Timetables 24/05/2014 at 18:58 #60906 | |
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eeldump
19 posts |
Re: SP and TOPS...they may still have been using it had the SP not been swallowed by the UP back in 1996. (Of course, the UP is only just now replacing *their* equivalent to TOPS...)
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