Auto Buttons

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Auto Buttons 27/05/2014 at 00:42 #60973
Guts
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604 posts
Online 		I don't know if I've mentioned this before but the operation of Auto Buttons are incorrect.

When a train has passed the block joint and the signal has returned to danger, if the auto is then pulled/cancelled, then the route should retain in place and not die out.

Currently the route dies if the auto is pulled.

The route should only die if the route itself dies before the auto is actually pressed
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Auto Buttons 27/05/2014 at 07:48 #60977
kaiwhara
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587 posts 		I can't say I have found that, I have just tried as you suggest and it works as you suggest on Victoria SE.
Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Auto Buttons 27/05/2014 at 11:13 #60979
Danny252
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1461 posts 		If the auto button is pulled before the signal would normally drop the route (usually when the first TC beyond the signal shows clear), then no new route is set. If the auto button is pulled after this point, it will already have restroked the route, and the signal will clear one more time. I regularly use it in this way to cancel the auto after it sets the route one final time.
Last edited: 27/05/2014 at 11:14 by Danny252
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Auto Buttons 27/05/2014 at 22:09 #61009
Firefly
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521 posts 		Guts is correct.

Although the application of Auto Buttons has varied over the years and across the regions, the normal practice is that the signal will only disengage if the button is pulled before the signal has returned to danger. Once the signal has returned to red it will remain set even if the Auto Button is then pulled.

For those that understand relay terms the GSR is held up over the RGPR and Berth and First track circuits.

FF
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The following user said thank you: Guts
Auto Buttons 28/05/2014 at 13:45 #61022
Josie
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310 posts 		But this is how it operates in Simsig, isn't it? I can't reproduce Guts's assertion that the route drops when the auto is cancelled either.
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Auto Buttons 28/05/2014 at 13:57 #61023
Steamer
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3997 posts 		" said:
But this is how it operates in Simsig, isn't it? I can't reproduce Guts's assertion that the route drops when the auto is cancelled either.
Just tested on Aston, if you cancel the auto just after the signal goes to red the route won't reset.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Auto Buttons 29/05/2014 at 16:27 #61073
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:
But this is how it operates in Simsig, isn't it? I can't reproduce Guts's assertion that the route drops when the auto is cancelled either.
Signal Clear and Auto Button Pressed


Train Passes Signal


Cancel Auto Working (In the real world the signal would still be in Auto)


In SimSig the route has cancelled.


FF
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Auto Buttons 29/05/2014 at 17:36 #61078
JamesN
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1612 posts 		That appears to me to be correct FF?
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Auto Buttons 29/05/2014 at 17:39 #61079
mfcooper
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707 posts 		In the RRI, Direct Control and early SSI (West London Line) areas at Victoria, the behaviour displayed in SimSig is what we see in the box.

In our new SSI areas (Victoria Station - SSI from Dec '13) the route would stay in for one more train.

EDIT: Firefly, your "In SimSig" example is exactly how it does work at Streatham Hill!
Last edited: 29/05/2014 at 17:40 by mfcooper
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Auto Buttons 29/05/2014 at 19:00 #61087
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:
Firefly, your "In SimSig" example is exactly how it does work at Streatham Hill!
Yep, refer to my caveat
Quote:
Although the application of Auto Buttons has varied over the years and across the regions, the normal practice is that the signal will only disengage if the button is pulled before the signal has returned to danger.
Although I should have said current practice rather than normal practice.

The way I've described is the way that all recent interlockings are likely to operate including new RRI interlockings. GEC & Westpac alterations are likely to maintain the standard of the day and work differently to the above.

Slightly older vintages of RRI and SSI wouldn't allow you to press the auto button after the signal had disengaged, however this latest standard does allow it. (i.e. restroke a signal simply by pressing the auto button)

Sorry we're back to square one, although Guts is correct in his observation if we're considering modern standards.

FF
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Auto Buttons 29/05/2014 at 20:48 #61096
Hooverman
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306 posts 		" said:
Slightly older vintages of RRI and SSI wouldn't allow you to press the auto button after the signal had disengaged, however this latest standard does allow it. (i.e. restroke a signal simply by pressing the auto button)
All of our new Single Button Control Signals (non interlocked) on the Arun Valley work this way.
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The following user said thank you: Firefly
Auto Buttons 29/05/2014 at 22:56 #61105
Firefly
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521 posts 		I'm surprised your interlocked ones don't unless you have TORR on them.
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Auto Buttons 30/05/2014 at 00:40 #61117
GeoffM
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6380 posts
Online 		SimSig auto button logic follows SSI8003 standards. However, perhaps SSI8003 has changed and I've not noticed. What would surprise me more is if the SSI logic changed accordingly as that's not something one fiddles with without a lot of time, money, and testing. Westlock or Smartlock, perhaps less of an issue.
SimSig Boss
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Auto Buttons 30/05/2014 at 07:53 #61120
Hooverman
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306 posts 		" said:
I'm surprised your interlocked ones don't unless you have TORR on them.
Your quite right there, our Single Button Controlled Signals (interlocked) do have TORR amongst other differences over their non interlocked cousins.
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Auto Buttons 30/05/2014 at 11:56 #61131
Firefly
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521 posts 		Quote:

SimSig auto button logic follows SSI8003 standards. However, perhaps SSI8003 has changed and I've not noticed. What would surprise me more is if the SSI logic changed accordingly as that's not something one fiddles with without a lot of time, money, and testing. Westlock or Smartlock, perhaps less of an issue.
Very true. I've only worked on Smartlock and RRI recently, there's not many new SSI's being put in. I'll have to look into it.

FF
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Auto Buttons 31/05/2014 at 18:33 #61177
Stephen Fulcher
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2089 posts 		Some Western Region Interlockings, generally the turn-push panel era, the auto function has no bearing at all on the routes set.

For instance on Plymouth Panel, if you have an auto set for a signal, then cancel the route, the auto does not cancel as well but remains, therefore when you set the route from that signal again the signal will clear andwork automatically.
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