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| Tail Lamp Telephones 27/06/2014 at 08:16 #62146 | |
Hawk777
386 posts |
I see the sim manual for the awesome new loader version of NWC makes a number of references to tail lamp telephones being installed in a few locations—it’s mentioned both in the bullet points about individual signal boxes and in the changelog at the bottom. However, the wiki is not forthcoming on one rather important question: what’s a tail lamp telephone? Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 27/06/2014 at 08:22 #62147 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
A phone to the signalbox located at a suitable place for a member of traincrew to advise the bobby the train has arrived complete with tail lamp. That is the information that's needed to be able to clear back for a train that doesn't pass the box. In the days when the guard was invariably in a monkey box on the back end they would be close to the points where the train entered a goods loop (the usual location they'd be needed) so he could hop down and give the message; in many cases, in fact, it wasn't a telephone but a plunger. There are a number of cases nowadays where it's not a phone but a CCTV camera pointing at the back of the train - a tail lamp phone is a fat lot of use where 80SLU trains run under Driver Only conditions!
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 27/06/2014 at 21:09 #62184 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
A couple of translations for you all " said: A phone to the signalbox located at a suitable place for a member of traincrew to advise the signaller the train has arrived complete with tail lamp. That is the information that's needed to be able to give train out of section for a train that doesn't pass the box. In the days when the guard was invariably in a brake van on the back end they would be close to the points where the train entered a goods loop (the usual location they'd be needed) so he could hop down and give the message; in many cases, in fact, it wasn't a telephone but a plunger. There are a number of cases nowadays where it's not a phone but a CCTV camera pointing at the back of the train - a tail lamp phone is a fat lot of use where 80 Standard Length Units [SLUs] (approx 21 feet/7 metres per SLU) trains run under Driver Only conditions! Last edited: 27/06/2014 at 21:10 by mfcooper Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Hawk777, Jsun |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 02:43 #62189 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
OK, makes sense why they exist. In that case, how do they manifest themselves in Simsig? For example, the NWC manual says that Bangor has “tail lamp telephone…. in the down direction.”. I tried running a train through Bangor panel along the mainline, and didn’t notice anything unusual happening. If I route a train to a particular location, will I get a telephone call from this device? If so, where? The only two options for down trains entering Bangor are mainline and down platform loop. It seems unlikely (to me) that this would be done at the platform, since I’d have thought the signal box was very close to the platform and able to see trains when they arrive, but perhaps I’m mistaken.
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 06:03 #62190 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
The box at Bangor is, if I'm not mistaken, just to the west of the station - so the Signalman isn't in a position to directly observe the tail lamp on a Down train until it's leaving the station. That's exactly why a tail lamp telephone is provided, and it's even more important for trains that will stand for more than a couple of minutes on either line (but most commonly the platform line). I'm not sure how, if at all, that's implemented in Simsig though.
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 06:14 #62191 | |
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SPADmad
104 posts |
If im getting the gist from Late Turns description right, do the telephone calls do a similar job as TAC plungers (for example ones at Sheffield Park on the Bluebell Railway)?
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 06:29 #62192 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Exactly the same purpose, yep.
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 15:44 #62198 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
Having played NWC a bit more, I have now observed the tail lamp telephone operating at Rhyl in the up direction (it shows up as a telephone call which, when answered simply says the guard from train XXXX reports train arrived complete, and the only possible response is “OK”). I didn’t realize the geographical layout of Bangor, so it makes sense then that the down platform would have one but not the down mainline, which is what I was originally testing. These aren’t very useful in SimSig where you can’t see tail lamps anyway and you just report train out of section based on track circuits, but they are fun to have for realism!
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 17:32 #62202 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Just as in reality, many of the AB sections in Simsig aren't track circuited throughout, so you have no way of proving that the train's arrived complete by track circuit indications alone!
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 19:11 #62207 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
This could be done in a similar way to CCTV crossings - within the sim, the act of pressing the button incorporates the actual check. Of course, trains unexpectedly dividing isn't simulated, but if it were, a similar message like "tail light not observed" could be used when pressing "train out of section" (just as "vehicle on crossing" appears sometimes when pressing "clear" on a CCTV crossing). And I'm not asking for trains unexpectedly dividing (and the driver not noticing) to be simulated - that would be hell! 
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 20:25 #62210 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Indeed - the vast majority of trains (loco hauled or multiple unit) stopped for no tail lamp are, it turns out, complete - but the tail lamp is either missing (fallen off or pinched!) or unlit (flat battery), or the driver's failed to change the lamps round, or the guard's swung his ticket machine in the back cab and caught the switch, or...!
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 28/06/2014 at 20:32 #62211 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:This could be done in a similar way to CCTV crossings - within the sim, the act of pressing the button incorporates the actual check. Of course, trains unexpectedly dividing isn't simulated, but if it were, a similar message like "tail light not observed" could be used when pressing "train out of section" (just as "vehicle on crossing" appears sometimes when pressing "clear" on a CCTV crossing).The ability to divide trains on the move is a long-standing request. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 29/06/2014 at 00:16 #62219 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
Slip coaches were mentioned at some point.
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 29/06/2014 at 08:37 #62227 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:Slip coaches were mentioned at some point.. . . . and the Lickey bankers. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 29/06/2014 at 09:32 #62228 | |
jc92
3687 posts 
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" said:" said:also the Camp hill banker at Saltley, and the Gunhouse Banker on South HumbersideSlip coaches were mentioned at some point.. . . . and the Lickey bankers. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 29/06/2014 at 19:44 #62260 | |
Soton_Speed
285 posts |
" said:And I'm not asking for trains unexpectedly dividing (and the driver not noticing) to be simulated - that would be hell! ;)How often did this used to happen? What with the end of unfitted frieghts and all... In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 29/06/2014 at 20:23 #62265 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:A few years ago the Class 365s were know to split when in service. I remember one evening we were diverted onto the slow somewhere around Hadley Wood "due to a train failure ahead". Shortly after we passed 4 cars of a "Cambridge Cruiser" then moments later the other 4! I remember hearing of a similar split somewhere near Sandy around the same time.And I'm not asking for trains unexpectedly dividing (and the driver not noticing) to be simulated - that would be hell! ;)How often did this used to happen? What with the end of unfitted frieghts and all... Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 29/06/2014 at 22:11 #62276 | |
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Entimix
16 posts |
*mumbles something about slip carriages on the Brighton line*
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| Tail Lamp Telephones 30/06/2014 at 04:46 #62283 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:Yes, I saw that one. I forget if we were booked on the Slow anyway, or got diverted at Hitchin, but I was startled to see us pass an 8-car 365 stationary on the Down Fast approaching Sandy, followed 100m or so later (with no intervening signal) but a 4-car 365. Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 30/06/2014 at 09:32 #62297 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Of course when a train becomes divided nowadays, the automatic brake usually brings it to a stand pretty quickly and it needs to be dealt with as a failed train. I never actually had a divided train in my time but the AB provisions were there for the situation where it was an unfitted freight that become divided and - of course - there was nothing to stop the front portion continuing for as many miles as it took someone to notice the lack of tail lamp/side lamps/brake van and raise the alarm. But - as far as I'm concerned - I'd like to think divided trains as such will be put in the same category as SPADs - that is to say, not simulated. Slip coaches and dropping bankers are a different matter entirely, but I think I'm right in saying the last ever slip coach was in the early 1960s (before Euston PSB was commissioned) so couldn't have happened in any era simulated by SimSig. I don't know whether Lickey bankers are coupled on these days; I had an idea assisting with bankers not coupled had been forbidden but I could well be wrong there. (Assisting in rear was authorised at Euston, interestingly, for all classes of train as far as EN106 or EN107 signal and with the assisting loco not coupled to the train. That authority remained in the 1980 Sectional Appendix and I don't know when it was finally withdrawn - I imagine it has been by now. But it does mean there is - at least theoretically - a possibility a banker dropping off on the move might need simulating in an existing sim, it would in fact be authentic to create a steam era timetable for Euston!) I'm not sure I recall ever having a train pass that truly had no tail lamp. What was fairly common was a train with unlit tail lamp (and, strangely enough, the only line I recall it happening with any frequency was the West London Line). Given that it was invariably on a train going to Willesden or Acton (yards) the usual drill was that the first signalman to realise he couldn't see the red glimmer would phone ahead to warn that he thought the lamp was out; the advance man would then take care to look particularly carefully. Tail lamps were always painted white - presumably for daytime observation - so it wasn't difficult to see it on the back of the train (it was usually possible to see the flame - or not - through the side glass as a train passed as well, so possible to confirm absolutely that it was unlit). Train out of section could then be given (allowing the rear box to do likewise - he would have waited for that confirmation before clearing back in his block) and the information phoned forward. Once the train came under control of a powerbox (Willesden or Old Oak) it didn't matter anyway, as lines were then fully track circuited. So we were able to keep traffic moving without the hassle of stopping the train and getting the lamp relit just for the last mile or so. But somehow I don't think SimSig will be simulating that sort of 'how it was really done' either :-( Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 30/06/2014 at 10:00 #62299 | |
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Haraubrad
103 posts |
Used to get freightliners quite regularly at Aynho Junction with no tail lamp. It was the first box to look for tail lamps. Once had a Bournemouth Newcastle without a tail lamp. It was left on the platform at Reading after the run round. Aubrey Log in to reply |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 30/06/2014 at 11:08 #62303 | |
Tempest Malice
122 posts
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" said:This youtube video from 2003 shows the lickey banker being non coupled then (see 1:20 ish in the video); But I've no idea if that has continued to be practice more recently. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 30/06/2014 at 11:30 #62304 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:Actually no it doesn't. A small group of class 66s have been fitted with auto couplers as part of the Lickey Banking operation, and can detach on the move, they are however still coupled.This youtube video from 2003 shows the lickey banker being non coupled then (see 1:20 ish in the video); But I've no idea if that has continued to be practice more recently. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 30/06/2014 at 11:30 by headshot119 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| Tail Lamp Telephones 30/06/2014 at 11:34 #62305 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
It is not totally uncommon to see the whole train have to be looped at Barnt Green or go into Washwood Heath to have the loco manually uncoupled after the auto coupler failed to detach either.
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