Hand cranking points at Chalfont

Incident control panel, select the points, under "hand crank" change from "auto" to "normal".

There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?

" said:

There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?

Muzer, Not a bug!

Here is the procedure using your 0530 save:
1. Remove lock on the reversed points. (Right click)
2. Go to F11 and select POINTS.
3. Click on point PJT47A, click on Hand Crank NORMAL button.
4. Click on point PJT47B, tick NORMAL DETECTION AVAILABLE
5. Close F11.
6. Go to the track and double left click on the oscillating points. The point will return to normal and you can set the appropriate signals.

A402, after the driver calls in, will go on its merry way.

Hope this helps
Barry

" said:

" said:

There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?

Muzer, Not a bug!

Here is the procedure using your 0530 save:
1. Remove lock on the reversed points. (Right click)
2. Go to F11 and select POINTS.
3. Click on point PJT47A, click on Hand Crank NORMAL button.
4. Click on point PJT47B, tick NORMAL DETECTION AVAILABLE
5. Close F11.
6. Go to the track and double left click on the oscillating points. The point will return to normal and you can set the appropriate signals.

A402, after the driver calls in, will go on its merry way.

Hope this helps
Barry

Isn't that rather a cheat, though, reinstating normal detection through the F11 menu when, because of the failure, it shouldn't be possible to obtain detection? It should be possible to run trains over a set of points that have been hand cranked, even if no detection is available or it hasn't been possible to key the points to match their position on the ground, and that appears to be what's wrong here.

There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?

Inserting the crank into a point machine does not (in most cases) break the detection circuit, only the motor drive circuit. On older schemes, the point handle was locked in a holder in the signal box - and removing the crank handle from this piece of kit would break detection and drive circuits, but not the action of putting a crank in the machine.

On Network Rail, these are becoming pretty rare now - i am not sure about LUL. If these Crank Handle Contact Boxes aren't installed on a scheme, then it is perfectly possible to wind a set of points by hand and gain detection. These contact boxes are generally found in smaller PSB's from the mid 1950's and earlier, or in small mechanical signal boxes with power worked points.

Incidentally, where these contact boxes are fitted, there is a different handle for each set of points - the handle being keyed to only fit in that machine. So if you needed to wind a lot a different sets, you could have loads of handles to take outside - although some remote points had these boxes fitted in location boxes trackside near the points, this was rare and they normally resided in the the signal box or relay room. If you are on the S&T, you didnt need to bother with all the seperate handles as there is a master crank handle that will fit all the machines of that type, regardless of key configurations.

The idea behind this was that if you had the handle, as a point operator, then all the while you had this handle, you were protected by the signalling whilst out operating the points. If you were S&T, using the master handle, then you had to take other precautions for your own safety. The biggest risk was that by not removing the handle from the contact box, the points could motor without warning, and a crank handle spinning at those speeds will certainly break bones (and has done, a few times).

These days, there are a few general standard points crank handles (for the different types of machine)and placing the crank handle in the machine breaks ONLY the motor circuit (except for clamplocks, where you have a switch to isolate them).

As for LUL - particularly Rickmansworth and the north Met, i think they still use the handle contact box (but it is a long time since i was in that area, so i don't know for sure).

Edit:- The three major signalling contractors all had their own way of doing this, MetVick (Metropolitan Vickers), Westinghouse and SGE. The MetVick machines so fitted were 5A, 5E, and 5P types. The Westinghouse machine was M3 or M3A. SGE had the HA and HB machines. There may be others, but these are the types i am aware of that could be fitted with this arrangement.