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| KX: what works what? 08/10/2014 at 21:28 #64935 | |
DaveHarries
1285 posts |
Hi all, Am working on another KX timetable that will be released toward the end of December. However I am aware that there are various classes of EMU used by FCC (313/317/319/321/325/365). What classes work which services? Also I gather that Hull Trains (and Grand Central?) have been known to send Class 180s on KX services. Are all their services to / from KX run by 180s or just some? Cheers, Dave Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 08/10/2014 at 21:35 #64937 | |
Sacro
1171 posts |
325s are mail trains used by GBRf. The rest are used by GN and I think tend to get switched all over as required. Hull Trains only have 180s, Grand Central have 6 HSTs and 5 180s. Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 08/10/2014 at 21:53 #64939 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
The WTT shows the booked EMU class in the head of each column. Links to WTTs within Wiki. Peter here I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 08/10/2014 at 21:57 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 08/10/2014 at 22:06 #64941 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
First lost the Great Northern franchise, and it's now Govia Thameslink, which will be merged with Southern next year. Sacro said: Hull Trains only have 180s, Grand Central have 6 HSTs and 5 180s.To clarify slightly: GC have 6 power cars, and operate two HST sets. Diagrams for the GC HSTs and 180s can be found here, on the 125 Group website. Sacro said: 325s are mail trains used by GBRf.They currently operate one train per day through the KX area, from Willesden to Low Fell, formed of a single 325. Class 319s are used entirely on the Thameslink side. Class 313s are the only other dual voltage unit, and as such work all Moorgate services. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 08/10/2014 at 22:43 #64942 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:The WTT shows the booked EMU class in the head of each column. Links to WTTs within Wiki.As has been mentioned many times before, the WTT doesn't give the booked units. Instead, it shows the timing load, i.e. the slowest unit that could work the times given. The actual booked unit will be given in the TOC's unit diagrams, if you can find them. UK Modern EMU is a good source for EMU (and VT Voyager) diagrams: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/UKmodernEMU/info Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 06:21 #64946 | |
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tjfrancis
359 posts |
" said:" said:The WTT shows the booked EMU class in the head of each column. Links to WTTs within Wiki.As has been mentioned many times before, the WTT doesn't give the booked units. Instead, it shows the timing load, i.e. the slowest unit that could work the times given. The actual booked unit will be given in the TOC's unit diagrams, if you can find them. I have got this group on yahoo so I can pm you dave with the diagrams that are on. Their group I am dyslexic so please consider this when reading my posts Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 09:23 #64947 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:That may well be technically correct but as a user of the line the TL is uncannilly accurate in that particular WTT.The WTT shows the booked EMU class in the head of each column. Links to WTTs within Wiki.As has been mentioned many times before, the WTT doesn't give the booked units. Instead, it shows the timing load, i.e. the slowest unit that could work the times given. The actual booked unit will be given in the TOC's unit diagrams, if you can find them. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 13:36 #64948 | |
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peterb
452 posts 
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" said:That may well be technically correct but as a user of the line the TL is uncannilly accurate in that particular WTTThis may well be the case in your experience on this WTT but is definitely not guaranteed to be 100% accurate for any given train on any given day on any given route. It's clear from many other routes that " said: ...the WTT shows the booked EMU class in the head of each column...is absolutely not the case. Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 15:10 #64951 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:313s run all the services to Moorgate. You occasionally see them on something else, but presumably those are fill-in turns. They work to KX on Hertford North and Letchworth services when Moorgate is shut. The rest of the FCC (now Govia) services out of KX are 317, 321, and 365. The King's Lynn services are usually 365s. In my experience, the 317s are used on the slower trains in the peaks, but that may be out of date. You're probably going to have to spot a few and then see how the workings all connect up. 325s are postals, not FCC's. 319s are used on services through the Thameslink Core; we never see them on the Great Northern. Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 15:11 #64952 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:First lost the Great Northern franchise, and it's now Govia Thameslink, which will be merged with Southern next year.However, they intend to brand the KX and Moorgate services as "Great Northern", reserving "Thameslink" for trains running via Farringdon. Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 15:20 #64953 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts |
Speaking Monday to Friday and talking quite loosely the following operate (The Yahoo group mentioned is normally a very good source - I have used them for a personal KX timetable I wrote a while back.) The Moorgate-Welwyn/Stevenage/Letchworth services are all Class 313. All appear to be 3+3 units during the early morning, through the peak and some even stay 3+3 until the evening. Class 317s normally only operate early morning / late evening and peaks on a mixture of services. Class 321s are the same as Class 317s except 1 or 2 of these go on to work during the midday off-peak (1154 ex-Cambridge is normally one - I know from experience it was formed of one every day last week) Class 365s dominate the remainder of the work, generally operating 4 cars off peak, rising to 8 and 12 during the peaks. East Coast use Class 91+MkIV Coaches+DVT and also have a few HST diagrams. Everything in and out of King's Cross is simply "Great Northern." There is (so far) no obvious hint to a new passenger arriving there that they also run Thameslink. It all seems to be treated as a separate entity (a fact I'm happy to live with until we have to integrate in a few years time  )Edit: Clive psoted while I was writing, hence some duplication Last edited: 09/10/2014 at 15:21 by metcontrol Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 17:50 #64954 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:The question was not about other routes.That may well be technically correct but as a user of the line the TL is uncannilly accurate in that particular WTTThis may well be the case in your experience on this WTT but is definitely not guaranteed to be 100% accurate for any given train on any given day on any given route. It's clear from many other routes that Clearly if booked stock is unavailable other stock will be used and that will be the case whether you have the official diagrams or not. All I can say is that someone has gone to a lot of bother to identify individual units classes for each train and as a regular user it's uncannily accurate. For example: I normally catch 1P47 a pair of 317s - WTT says "317" and we are overtaken by 1P05 3x365 -> WTT="365" and occasionally I catch 1P07 2x365 WTT="365". Now 1P49 is 3x321 and WTT="321" and we pass a pair of 365s at Hitchin (1P46) and 2x321s on 3R35 Guess what the WTT says? as I say uncanny - but then from what you say I guess you can point me to cases where the 317/321/365 match is not actually the case and the uncanniness fall over. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 19:06 #64955 | |
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peterb
452 posts
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" said:The question was not about other routes.No, but your quote used out of context by uncanny members reading this months or years later will surely not be helpful. " said: All I can say is that someone has gone to a lot of bother to identify individual units classes for each trainIs it not the reverse case that timetables are written to accommodate specific timing loads? " said: as a regular user it's uncannily accurate.I'd re-emphasise how lucky you are in this respect. Try reading any WTT rich in Sprinter trains for example and predict with any accuracy exactly which unit will operate it. Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 09/10/2014 at 20:01 #64956 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:The question was not about other routes.No, but your quote used out of context by uncanny members reading this months or years later will surely not be helpful. A lot of quotes taken out of context are unhelpful, that does not make them invalid within context. " said:
I doubt there is much material difference between the performance characteristics of a 317, 321 or 365 within the context of the GN outer suburban timetable construct which generally works on basic interval timetables and unit substitution is not uncommon. " said:
Thanks: I don't dispute the point as a general principle having dealt with the McSims. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 09/10/2014 at 20:02 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 10/10/2014 at 15:01 #64971 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts |
" said:I doubt there is much material difference between the performance characteristics of a 317, 321 or 365 within the context of the GN outer suburban timetable construct which generally works on basic interval timetables and unit substitution is not uncommon.Just to add, as far as I have seen over 25+ years, the diagrams for our lines are written regardless of actual unit class, and are merely written with units capable of 100mph in mind. Finsbury Park-Stevenage fast has been 18-21 minutes for years, regardless of what units - or how many of them coupled together - are used. All that's changed is Baldock-Hitchin used to be 5 minutes, but now it's generally 8 - but that's a whole other story... Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 10/10/2014 at 23:58 #64974 | |
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dwelham313
139 posts |
Under the current timetable you'd really need a set of diagrams for accurate allocation as the 'general rules' seem to have gone out the window. For example the last xx15 up cruiser from Cambridge to London worked by 365s is 17:15, the 18:15-21:15 inclusive are all 317s or 321s! (xx45s are still 365s). As Peter Bennet says there is almost no difference in performance of the outer suburban stock, I think the WTT is so accurate because it DOES matter what works what on the GN - so much coupling and uncoupling takes place that it helps operational staff work out short notice changes if the info in the WTT is correct, compared to a 'Northern' WTT it doesn't matter if a different type of unit turns up for a join, they are all compatible but serious problems would result of you tried to couple a 321 to a 365 and drive it in passenger service! Log in to reply |
| KX: what works what? 13/10/2014 at 15:06 #65032 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Just wanted to add a few things which I believe may have been missed: 313s are indeed currently the only cleared EMUs on the Moorgate branch, with a pair of Class 73s (diesel engines turned off, please(!)....) and about four Mark 2(?) coaches also cleared for use on test trains down there. 319s are actually occasionally seen at Hornsey EMU Depot as they often go there - via South London - from Cricklewood Depot [Thameslink line/route], I believe to use the wheel lathe. See this page on a previous thread (read from post #22 to post #30). In the morning and evening peaks you get semi-fast services from/to Welwyn Garden City to/from London King's Cross in the appropriate direction (e.g.: Up semi-fasts in the morning peak; Down semi-fasts in the evening-peak). These are usually either Class 321s/Class 313s/Class 365s, but it has also been known for Class 317s to cover these too. If you look at the public timetable it should actually give you a good idea of what type of unit is on these services, as they usually show the carriage numbers (peak times only) at the top of the train's column. AFAIA, only Class 313s run these semi-fast (limited stop) services from/to Stevenage or Hertford North to/from Moorgate. I think that's it, but if I do happen to think of anything else then I'll endeavour to add it as soon as possible. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |