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| Lockerbie entry point 30/10/2014 at 20:10 #65354 | |
peterb
452 posts |
I can't see any mention of this elsewhere so apologies if I've missed it. On the current (real-life) timetable I'm testing, I note that all trains enter at Lockerbie on time, yet are typically 8-9 minutes early (for an express) passing Gretna Junction. The only reasons I can attribute to this are that a) there isn't sufficient distance between the entry point and Gretna Junction, and/or b) the entry point itself is not Lockerbie station but some point south of. Surely the entry point needs to be some fixed known location on the ground e.g. Carnforth North Junction. *** Also a minor bug not worthy of its own thread, a train seeded at AN4 doesn't cause the signal to turn green (when the section as far as Gretna is clear). Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 30/10/2014 at 20:28 #65357 | |
postal
5265 posts 
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Peter I think Tom is busy on other things at the moment so maybe I can reply on his behalf. The released version of the sim is inaccurate to the extent that the entry location shown as Lockerbie is actually just north of Kirkpatrick Fleming which is the boundary between Motherwell and Carlisle boxes (so as you surmise some distance short of the full Lockerbie - Kirkpatrick distance). Tom once told this was because no-one would have heard of Kirkpatrick although most people would have some idea about where Lockerbie was. The sim was in gestation long before the ability to download CIF files etc and the discrepancy wasn't really an issue as the TT writer could just adjust the timings as each train was manually entered. Obviously it is now far more of an issue with large part of modern day TTs being generated from real-life electronic data. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 30/10/2014 at 20:29 by postal Reason: typo Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 30/10/2014 at 21:00 #65360 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Though Kirkpatrick is a mandatory timing point. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 30/10/2014 at 21:14 #65361 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
Kirkpatrick Signal MC.862 is a mandatory timing point, however the entry point is in rear of that (on the same track circuit though) and is called Lockerbie, despite being around 17 miles nearer.
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| Lockerbie entry point 30/10/2014 at 21:31 #65362 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
OK so Entry is 62.6 chains (approximately) north of the Mandatory timing point - just to be clear. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 01:28 #65364 | |
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320322
86 posts |
Signal MC862 is the last signal locatated at Kirkpatrick Fleming on the Up line (towards Carlisle) for Motherwell , in the vicinity on the Down Line , MC863 is the First signal encountered heading North , many miles in advance of Lockerbie
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| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 10:30 #65367 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:OK so Entry is 62.6 chains (approximately) north of the Mandatory timing point - just to be clear.Define 'the'. Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 11:26 #65369 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:Not sure I understand the question - it's all discussed above: The TC on which the timing point lies is 62.6c long.OK so Entry is 62.6 chains (approximately) north of the Mandatory timing point - just to be clear.Define 'the'. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 13:12 #65371 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:" said:Yes, but it is named Lockerbie, which is ~17 miles away from the entry point." said:Not sure I understand the question - it's all discussed above: The TC on which the timing point lies is 62.6c long.OK so Entry is 62.6 chains (approximately) north of the Mandatory timing point - just to be clear.Define 'the'. Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 13:44 #65372 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:I know that: I just observed that Kirkpatrick is a Mandatory timing point to which you said it was actually Kirkpatrick MC862 and entry was in the rear of that but on but same TC (the point of which was not was not clear to me so) - I further observed that TC in question is only 62.3 chains long." said:Yes, but it is named Lockerbie, which is ~17 miles away from the entry point." said:Not sure I understand the question - it's all discussed above: The TC on which the timing point lies is 62.6c long.OK so Entry is 62.6 chains (approximately) north of the Mandatory timing point - just to be clear.Define 'the'. Peter Either-way all Tom needs to do is rename the entry point Kirkpatrick I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 31/10/2014 at 13:48 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 15:34 #65373 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts
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" said:No, because then you'd have: Entry point: Kirkpatrick Next location: Kirkpatrick and then set the entry time to (Kirkpatrick passing time minus some arbitrary value) SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 15:59 #65375 | |
58050
2659 posts |
I seem to remember when I wrote the Carlisle 1979-1980 tt I used the Lockerbie timings from the WTT originally as the entry times for trains on the Up. Then Tom mentioned that it wasn't actually Lockerbie that was the entry point in the sim, it was somewhere around the Kirkpatrick area. This came to light when some of us was testing the tt as the trains were running way too early by the time they passed Gretna Junc. The entry timings in the tt at the moment are a result of alot of testing undertaken by John(postal) with regard given to the various different speed classes of trains in that tt.
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| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 16:12 #65376 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:" said:Rename it to Kirkpatrick Signal MC.862, remove the requirement to have that as the first timing point, and perhaps move it slightly nearer the signal." said:I know that: I just observed that Kirkpatrick is a Mandatory timing point to which you said it was actually Kirkpatrick MC862 and entry was in the rear of that but on but same TC (the point of which was not was not clear to me so) - I further observed that TC in question is only 62.3 chains long." said:Yes, but it is named Lockerbie, which is ~17 miles away from the entry point." said:Not sure I understand the question - it's all discussed above: The TC on which the timing point lies is 62.6c long.OK so Entry is 62.6 chains (approximately) north of the Mandatory timing point - just to be clear.Define 'the'. Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 17:17 #65377 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
" said:I agree of course that "Lockerbie Up Main" is slightly misleading, but moving the entry point to MC862 would surely not be prototypical. To be completely representative to real life and not have the entry point at either MC862 or Lockerbie station, you'd need to rename the entry point - what is it officially called? Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 20:04 #65378 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:" said:Why wouldn't MC862 be prototypical? It's the last signal controlled by Motherwell, and convenient for timetable writers as it's a mandatory timing point.I agree of course that "Lockerbie Up Main" is slightly misleading, but moving the entry point to MC862 would surely not be prototypical. To be completely representative to real life and not have the entry point at either MC862 or Lockerbie station, you'd need to rename the entry point - what is it officially called? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 20:05 #65379 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:" said:Although you can set the entry point to the start of the track circuit that the panel has visibility of, it's a pain when timetabling, ideally you'd go back to the previous mandatory timing point, thus making automated timetable generation an awful lot easier as you no longer need to calculate / guess what time a train should enter.I agree of course that "Lockerbie Up Main" is slightly misleading, but moving the entry point to MC862 would surely not be prototypical. To be completely representative to real life and not have the entry point at either MC862 or Lockerbie station, you'd need to rename the entry point - what is it officially called? There probably isn't an 'official' name for the location, aside from the track circuit identity. Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 20:22 #65380 | |
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postal
5265 posts
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" said:" said:The mandatory timing points are shown in the current WTT as Kirkpatrick Signal Mc863 in the Down direction and and Kirkpatrick Signal MC862 in the Up direction. The territory boundary is shown in Table A of the Sectional Appendix at 12m. 30ch. which is 1m. 77ch. north of Quintinshill GF. A that point the TCB shifts from Carlisle SB to Motherwell SC.I agree of course that "Lockerbie Up Main" is slightly misleading, but moving the entry point to MC862 would surely not be prototypical. To be completely representative to real life and not have the entry point at either MC862 or Lockerbie station, you'd need to rename the entry point - what is it officially called? The Rules of the Plan for Scotland show the route as Gretna Jn to Glasgow Central via Beattock giving MC862/MC863 as timing locations but the entry for Gretna Jn shows as "To/from Carlisle Refer to LNW Timetable Planning Rules". All of that seems to indicate that the demarcation in real life between the Motherwell and Carlisle Areas in at Kirkpatrick Fleming and the suggestion would be prototypical. Apologies for repeating a lot of earlier postings but I was busy digging out WTTs/ROTP etc while others were typing. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 20:50 #65384 | |
jc92
3687 posts |
" said:" said:But where does Carlisle's Train describer start? would it be prototypical for trains to "drop" onto Carlisles Panel without prior warning?." said:Why wouldn't MC862 be prototypical? It's the last signal controlled by Motherwell, and convenient for timetable writers as it's a mandatory timing point.I agree of course that "Lockerbie Up Main" is slightly misleading, but moving the entry point to MC862 would surely not be prototypical. To be completely representative to real life and not have the entry point at either MC862 or Lockerbie station, you'd need to rename the entry point - what is it officially called? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 21:19 #65385 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:https://www.flickr.com/photos/95643843@N07/8729243362/in/set-72157633455110107 pETER I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 21:21 #65386 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts
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" said:" said:Yes, that's a rather important factor. Many signal box fringes extend indications far beyond the actual handover point (and there is (nearly) always at least one track section shown in both boxes). If a sim were to enter a train halfway down that approach then it would not be prototypical. I don't know enough about the Carlisle/Motherwell fringe overlap to say whether that would be a problem though." said:But where does Carlisle's Train describer start? would it be prototypical for trains to "drop" onto Carlisles Panel without prior warning?." said:Why wouldn't MC862 be prototypical? It's the last signal controlled by Motherwell, and convenient for timetable writers as it's a mandatory timing point.I agree of course that "Lockerbie Up Main" is slightly misleading, but moving the entry point to MC862 would surely not be prototypical. To be completely representative to real life and not have the entry point at either MC862 or Lockerbie station, you'd need to rename the entry point - what is it officially called? SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 21:23 #65387 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts
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" said:" said:But that doesn't actually say when Motherwell starts sending the TDs though. A TD stepping diagram or stepping data would show it.https://www.flickr.com/photos/95643843@N07/8729243362/in/set-72157633455110107 SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 22:01 #65388 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
As my ears are burning and my inbox now has a lot of forum/ bug board messages filling it up I felt it appropriate to respond to try and put this issue to bed. Postal was witness to the development of the sim and is correct in what he is saying with regards to Mandatory timing points. Here's a bit more background:- At the time I only had diagrams for the Carlisle area and nothing about Motherwell. I did subsequently receive diagrams but by that time I was a bit loathe to change it, mainly because of Kirkpatrick being a mandatory timing point, and because I thought it would be a lot of effort (I've since mellowed a bit on that point). Also, the signallers on the panel don't see trains all the way back to Lockerbie (Ok, well they do have CCF) so I felt that allowing them to be seen at Lockerbie would be a little bit unrealistic. I also realised that by entering the train on the beginning of the track circuit it would be some distance in metres from the actual signal, but I felt this would be less than a minute for the fastest trains and maybe a minute for the slowest so in the grand scheme of things it didn't seem to matter. I didn't want to shorten the track circuit as I wanted the TD and track occupation times to be prototypical, and eventually chaining might become an issue too. The naming of the entry point came about because it was pointed out that calling it 'Kirkpatrick' as was on early beta versions of the sim was ambiguous because it isn't a widely known place and calling it Lockerbie would make it easier for newbies to identify where trains where coming from. I obviously didn't consider that it would cause unwitting TT developers to try and time trains from Lockerbie itself (I was in contact with those developing the timetables prior to release so the issue was well known). My Current copy of the loader sim has it renamed to Kirkpatrick so I must have decided since the last public release that it was a bad idea. I've been asked to actually include Lockerbie proper as the entry point and have agreed to doing so, so hopefully that will resolve the matter once and for all. Apologies for any confusion there. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: peterb |
| Lockerbie entry point 31/10/2014 at 23:23 #65391 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
Thanks Tom for the full explanation. What's happened is I've been one of your unwitting TT developers assuming that the entry point was at the named station.
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