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| Motherwell questions 14/12/2014 at 17:39 #66657 | |
ajax103
1120 posts |
Just a quick one but 3 questions.... 1. Is there any time differences between Motherwell and Carstairs via Carluke instead of Motherwell and Carstairs via Wishaw? 2. If a train is booked via one route but is so signalled via the other, should it be queried by the train crew? 3. Are the loops between Carstairs and Carlisle accepted for passenger trains to allow late trains to overtake them? Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 14/12/2014 at 18:10 #66658 | |
Muzer
718 posts |
I'm not familiar with Motherwell, but to answer 3) in the general case, if they're named "Goods Loop" (GL) they're not usable for passenger trains, whereas if they're named "passing loop" (PL) they are.
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| Motherwell questions 14/12/2014 at 18:55 #66661 | |
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ajax103
1120 posts |
Thought that was the case, I accidentally signalled a Cross Country to New Street ahead of a Virgin Trains to Euston at Carstairs so just double checking it was actually acceptable.
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| Motherwell questions 14/12/2014 at 20:55 #66667 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
Re question 2 - I'd be surprised if the TOC/FOCs don't maintain route knowledge of all the diversionary routes in the area. The first VT service out of Central runs via Holytown and Wishaw and there was at least one service on a Sunday morning which was booked to run via Queens Park, Mount Florida and Newton. I also seem to recall an ECS which was booked to run via the Hamilton Circle.
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 14/12/2014 at 21:41 #66669 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
In real life Scotrail/Crosscountry/Viirgin drivers are instructed via the Sectional Appendix to take the road either via the mainline or Holytown without questioning it. Whether the same is true of the sim I cannot say.
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| Motherwell questions 14/12/2014 at 22:06 #66673 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:In real life Scotrail/Crosscountry/Viirgin drivers are instructed via the Sectional Appendix to take the road either via the mainline or Holytown without questioning it. Whether the same is true of the sim I cannot say.It's currently not coded to query any routes but I've been requested to add some. To that end for a future release1 I've distinguished by whether trains will miss a booked call (they will call in) or not (they will not call in). Is that a correct approach? Peter 1 I don't think that's been released yet. I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 14/12/2014 at 22:09 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Prof Jolly |
| Motherwell questions 15/12/2014 at 09:32 #66679 | |
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john havenhand
58 posts |
both Plumpton and Grayrigg goods loops are ok for passengers but only TPX have used them so I would imagine beattock would be
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| Motherwell questions 15/12/2014 at 10:31 #66680 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
It's currently not coded to query any routes but I've been requested to add some. To that end for a future release1 I've distinguished by whether trains will miss a booked call (they will call in) or not (they will not call in). Is that a correct approach? I would agree with that. Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 15/12/2014 at 10:32 #66681 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
" said:That's the approach I would take. Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 15/12/2014 at 12:15 #66685 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
It was a question for Ron. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 16/12/2014 at 10:22 #66722 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:" said:In real life Scotrail/Crosscountry/Viirgin drivers are instructed via the Sectional Appendix to take the road either via the mainline or Holytown without questioning it. Whether the same is true of the sim I cannot say.It's currently not coded to query any routes but I've been requested to add some. To that end for a future release1 I've distinguished by whether trains will miss a booked call (they will call in) or not (they will not call in). Is that a correct approach? If it's anything like it used to be in South London that's exactly how it should work - the SA instruction specifically authorised trains not booked to call intermediately to take the alternative route without query (my italics) so by implication anything with a call on the alternative route should call in. (Typical of the old railway that you had to realise the instruction generated a particular exception and anything not covered by that description had to implement the standard rule. Perhaps it still does happen that way; I don't know but, if anyone does have access to an actual instruction, I would be interested to hear.) Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 16/12/2014 at 14:08 #66730 | |
DriverCurran
688 posts |
The instructions for Shortlands Junction to Brixton Junction and Earlswood to Stoats Nest Junction still portray the same instructions to drivers. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, kbarber |
| Motherwell questions 16/12/2014 at 16:26 #66735 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
" said:It was a question for Ron.Here are the instructions: Quote: SC011- LAW JN TO UDDINGSTON JN (VIA HOLYTOWN) Quote: SC011 - LAW JN TO UDDINGSTON JN (VIA HOLYTOWN) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: kbarber, Peter Bennet |
| Motherwell questions 16/12/2014 at 18:52 #66739 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:The instructions for Shortlands Junction to Brixton Junction and Earlswood to Stoats Nest Junction still portray the same instructions to drivers. Thanks for that. Used to be Shepherds Lane instead of Brixton Jc I believe... sadly I never did get around to visiting that box 
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| Motherwell questions 20/12/2014 at 13:42 #66863 | |
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ajax103
1120 posts |
So what happens if the driver is given the diverted route but it means missing a booked station stop?
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| Motherwell questions 20/12/2014 at 14:52 #66864 | |
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John
884 posts |
" said:So what happens if the driver is given the diverted route but it means missing a booked station stop?The same as in Simsig. The driver will stop and inform the signaller that they have been given the wrong route, at which point the signaller will replace the signal to danger, wait for the timeout and set the correct route. Occasionally, however, an absent minded driver will take the incorrect route before bringing their train to a stand. The decision will then have to made whether the train continues along the wrong route, or the driver will be authorised to set the train back behind the signal and then sent the right way. Route control will have to be informed of their collective faux pas and I imagine some paperwork filled out. The driver and signaller will then more than likely be sent to bed early without any tea. Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 20/12/2014 at 16:27 #66865 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
He'll phone the box and ask what's going on.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 20/12/2014 at 17:07 #66869 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
Out of interest, if there is required to be a short-notice diversion that means missing a station stop, how is the driver contacted nowadays? Hold the next signal (as appropriate) at danger and send the message asking them to contact the signaller? Or just set the route and wait for them to phone to tell them that it's intentional?
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| Motherwell questions 20/12/2014 at 20:23 #66870 | |
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DriverCurran
688 posts |
" said:" said:Or sent in front of the right honourable Lofty :evil:So what happens if the driver is given the diverted route but it means missing a booked station stop?Occasionally, however, an absent minded driver will take the incorrect route before bringing their train to a stand. The decision will then have to made whether the train continues along the wrong route, or the driver will be authorised to set the train back behind the signal and then sent the right way. Route control will have to be informed of their collective faux pas and I imagine some paperwork filled out. The driver and signaller will then more than likely be sent to bed early without any tea. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 21/12/2014 at 15:04 #66900 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:So what happens if the driver is given the diverted route but it means missing a booked station stop? As others have said he should stop and query the route. All being well (in the old days anyway) the delay wouldn't show too badly and it might be possible to 'square' things, especially if Control wasn't inclined to get too much into the paperwork. Of course there used to be some locations (and I suspect Shepherds Lane and Shortlands might have been among them) where the diverging route had a free green, so the approaching driver would have no advance warning he'd been wrong-routed until he saw the junction indicator (or lack thereof). If there was sufficient sighting distance he would try to stop short of the signal - makes life a lot easier if you can! In the London suburban area that might not be too much of a problem - the old EP brakes could be quite fierce if you really threw them on and a 12-car train could stop in its own length from about 50mph. (I can vouch for that... when I was Station Supervisor it wasn't unknown for a driver to approach Barking in the morning peak and suddenly realise he wasn't on a non-stop today. The sound of the air being dumped a bit sharpish as the train ran in was the inevitable tell-tale, invariably followed by a bit of a walk for the passengers waiting at the back of the platform, but it was very rare for the front car to end up off the platform.) Where speeds were higher a junction would almost certainly be approach controlled so a driver would get a useful early indication there might be a wrong-route. Either that or something ahead that meant he'd be stopping at the signal anyway. Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 21/12/2014 at 16:04 #66905 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
Recently they've been adding "preliminary route indicators" to the nowadays rare junctions that don't give "enough" advance warning of the route, where a wrong-route would cause operational difficulties (I think the examples given included diverging routes that have free greens still (are there any left?), and flashing yellows where there are two possible diversionary routes of similar speeds). I believe they're not intended to be safety-critical so presumably they can be built relatively cheaply (this is still railway signalling, though, so I don't expect it to be THAT cheap :p). They take the form of a dot-matrix display of LEDs (similar to a modern banner repeater) but displaying a little arrow.
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| Motherwell questions 22/12/2014 at 09:57 #66927 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:Recently they've been adding "preliminary route indicators" to the nowadays rare junctions that don't give "enough" advance warning of the route, where a wrong-route would cause operational difficulties (I think the examples given included diverging routes that have free greens still (are there any left?), and flashing yellows where there are two possible diversionary routes of similar speeds). I believe they're not intended to be safety-critical so presumably they can be built relatively cheaply (this is still railway signalling, though, so I don't expect it to be THAT cheap :p). They take the form of a dot-matrix display of LEDs (similar to a modern banner repeater) but displaying a little arrow. Colton Junction has free greens, I believe, with 125mph authorised on all routes... I think that was the inspiration for PRIs after a misrouting or two (bad enough if a Leeds train is sent up the main line, but distinctly awkward if an electrically hauled up London is put up the Leeds  ). I'm not so sure there aren't one or two others around the place as well, certainly Continental Junction (London side of Folkestone) had free greens & PRIs before HS1 started to be commissioned (not even sure it still exists these days).
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| Motherwell questions 22/12/2014 at 13:02 #66936 | |
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Hpotter
205 posts |
" said:They still exist, 2x part PRI proving for the junction. Log in to reply |
| Motherwell questions 22/12/2014 at 15:48 #66948 | |
postal
5264 posts 
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" said:" said:Happened once at Colton with 1A41 (NE Up TPO from Gateshead to PRDC, Willesden) being sent to Church Fenton. Took a bit of sorting out before that was fixed.Recently they've been adding "preliminary route indicators" to the nowadays rare junctions that don't give "enough" advance warning of the route, where a wrong-route would cause operational difficulties (I think the examples given included diverging routes that have free greens still (are there any left?), and flashing yellows where there are two possible diversionary routes of similar speeds). I believe they're not intended to be safety-critical so presumably they can be built relatively cheaply (this is still railway signalling, though, so I don't expect it to be THAT cheap :p). They take the form of a dot-matrix display of LEDs (similar to a modern banner repeater) but displaying a little arrow. On the subject, as Keith notes, the junctions are 125mph. Of the 4 tracks between there and York, the ECML pair are 125mph from Copmanthorpe southwards but the Church Fenton pair are only 100mph. The ladder at Colton N Jn to get from the Church Fenton lines to ECML is only 70mph. I once came out of York on the 0700 NCL - KGX via the Church Fenton pair rather than the ECML Main Lines. The driver proceeded at his normal rate (so we were well in excess of the line speed in any event by the time we approached the ladder) until the panic braking when he realised he was too far to the right. We must have still being doing best part of 100mph when we went across the ladder. There were a few breakfasts on people's laps in the posh end that morning. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 22/12/2014 at 15:49 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |