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| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 25/01/2015 at 13:49 #68363 | |
bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
This has been a long time from stating out, but as it is now fully in work I thought it might be worth showing the build-up and how I have produced this 'historical' timetable. Hopefully it will give a few others the start to make more 'old' timetables. Bill JULY 2008 I decided to get a full set of timetables for the UK, around about once in 10 years depending on what came up on eBay. I now have a 'ER' for summer 1964, that being a rather 'relevant' year for me. The Kings Cross lines look very different to what happens now so I thought 'could I make a SimSig timetable from this ?'. It has very little 'clockface' to it, so could also be quite interesting. There's obviously huge differences in layout but they can be probably coped with based on using current operating methods. This might also be a Kings Cross timetable that is comfortable for a single user. Going through the compromises we get: There is no Kings Cross or Finsbury Park loco depot. So almost all the services will have work as push pull / units. The widened lines to Moorgate are not there, nor are 6 tracks to the terminus. However there is the Drayton Park route, and the operating should be about the same, so it will do. The Luton branch was still operating, but Welwyn down carriage sidings can serve for that. TO BE CONTINUED...... Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 25/01/2015 at 14:04 #68365 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
DERBY MEET 2008 Scanned and printed out the pages from the timetable and used this as a bit of a 'show' for the meet. During the meet we set up the basic trains for the timetable to make sure that they would stick to timetable. This does mean that it cannot chain, as they have to run at 60mph. Later research online produced the fact that back then the whole suburban area had a blanket 60mph restriction. I also began to sort out the diagrams which will lead on to platforming at Kings Cross. I do this in a spreadsheet as it is easiest to drag trains about and use coloured boxes to indicate types of train. The main line should be fairly easy as there's 3 distinct train types, sleepers, pullmans and 'normal'. It is also fairly likely that 'Leeds' trains go back to Leeds etc. So here's the first go at this.... For suburbans, it is often easier to start in the middle of the day and work outwards. This makes the trains formed from ECS, or stabling over the day, easier to find. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 25/01/2015 at 14:05 #68366 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
2009 Then the Scottish sim's came along and it got parked Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 26/01/2015 at 07:34 #68397 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:DERBY MEET 2008 Bit surprised at this; in '64 I'd have expected many, perhaps most inward class 1 workings to go empty to some of the sidings that used to be where the various depots are now. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 26/01/2015 at 09:49 #68402 | |
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uboat
219 posts |
is it going to come out of park?
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| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 26/01/2015 at 23:55 #68435 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Yes, it is out of park and in fact I have just tried running it for the first time, but that is getting a few episodes ahead !
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| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 26/01/2015 at 23:59 #68436 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Quote:Bit surprised at this; in '64 I'd have expected many, perhaps most inward class 1 workings to go empty to some of the sidings that used to be where the various depots are now.I'd agree that in 1964 that was probably true, but this is a compromise timetable (at least for now) using modern day operating on the 1964 timings. I may put some more classic operating back in later as a 'full fat' version. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/01/2015 at 00:08 #68437 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
So a bit more detail on how I went about writing the timetable. To make it easier to keep track of trains, I usually create separate timetables for each type of train. Each of these should be consistent within itself, and the sim TT_Analysis.txt report should be relatively error free. This approach allows the errors to be picked up fairly early on and fixed. For this timetable these were Inner Suburban, which should be most of the 2nd only trains and the Moorgate / Broad Streets Outer Suburban, mostly for Hitchin & beyond Main Lines Sleepers and Car Carriers Freight As this is a 'beginners' timetable I also decided to make the headcodes simpler and follow a strict setup. I made no attempt to get these historically correct. 1Axx are main line trains to Kings Cross, 1Exx if from Scotland. 1Bxx, 1Gxx, 1Nxx and 1Sxx for down services from Kings Cross. Parcels 3xxx, ECS 5xxx On the suburban side, 2Cxx for Cambridge, 2Dxx for Welwyn, 2Hxx for Hertford and 2Lxx for Luton. Even up, odd down ECS to form a service are 3xxx and ECS after a service 5xxx There turned out to be a couple of clashes, but easily adjusted. The only solution would be making the parcels 4xxx. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/01/2015 at 11:38 #68464 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
" said:1Exx if from Scotland.Any reason why these aren't using an "S"? Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/01/2015 at 11:45 #68465 | |
--miki--
68 posts |
" said:" said:Maybe because they're from Scotland to Eastern Region?1Exx if from Scotland.Any reason why these aren't using an "S"? Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/01/2015 at 11:47 #68466 | |
northroad
872 posts |
Probably because they are going into the Eastern region and not Scotland 
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| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/01/2015 at 11:52 #68467 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
" said:Probably because they are going into the Eastern region and not Scotland ;) I've been up since 04.00. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. :doh Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 11:52 by lazzer Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 01/02/2015 at 00:29 #68627 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
So moving on to November 2014, I decided to use my Christmas / New Year break to push this timetable along. I try to find out as much as I can about the era when doing historical timetables and often find the research as much fun as getting the timetable to work. There's my relatively small collection of books as well as forums and photos from the internet. For many sims I find that 'rmweb', a forum mainly for modellers, was useful. A photo link led to 'lner.info' forum that gave me some detail on parcels workings and diagram/stabling arrangements. There's also youtube links to film of the last days of hauled suburbans. Specific links http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/k/kings_cross_york_road/ http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7196 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpb9oZ6f3g http://www.train-photos.com/picture/number9609.asp https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/4154962501/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/7466258972/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/sets/72157624322971476/detail/?page=22 https://www.youtube.com/embed/8ZiTRd8dT6A http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_05_2014/post-5613-0-14994400-1401387754.jpg https://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/5734489082/ From those, a few decisions for the timetables arise: Most local trains are 4 car DMU and there's quite a few 6 coach hauled sets on suburban work. The hauled sets most likely do single trips in each peak and were often already obvious on the spreadsheet for 'diagrams'. Hauled stock seems to live at Ferme Park, Welwyn up and Hertford. lner.info says quite a lot of stock stabled at odd places like Potters Bar and Cuffley. These aren't in sim so will have to improvise ! There's one new problem as the 1964 Kings Cross had two more suburban platforms (12 and 13). So when setting up the main line platforms I'll use P6 for main Cambridge services, and try to keep 7 clear if I can. This will mean more local services being ECS to/from Hornsey rather than stabling in the station as seems the case in photos. Bill Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 05/02/2015 at 23:47 #68902 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
So getting on with the timetable over Christmas, fist is sorting out platforms for the main line section of the timetable. As noted above I am trying to keep a few 'main' platforms free as the real timetable had more platforms. I decided to keep 6 free, and use 7 as little as possible. A look at the daytime suburbans shows that the 'inners' need two platforms (say 10 and 11) and hopefully the 'outers' can cope with using 9 and 6. This won't be perfect first time, but should be close enough that there's only a few adjustments when checking the analysis file. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 08/02/2015 at 15:14 #68998 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Putting in the timetables took several days in all: From the tested 'base' trains, now a case of duplicating to fill the timetables, and editing if needed for variations such as not calling Finsbury Park. I decided to use the older scrolly sim for the timetable creation. This allows conversion into text files which can be easier to use for some editing or correcting tasks. It does mean that some functionality is lost in the meantime, for example seed trains. Testing, and the final timetable will however be for the loader sim. Main line was easy, just a text edit for the description on all but three trains. Quite a lot of rules needed for turnaround times and the nominal 'all sleepers leave ECS at 0730' will need fixing later. Outer suburban was OK, but little pattern to it so each train ends up modified. Inner suburban was a pain too, almost every train in the peak has a different calling pattern ! At least in the middle of the day I could generate 6 hours at once using the editor duplication feature. So about half way through Christmas, all the trains are set up. Last edited: 08/02/2015 at 15:17 by bill_gensheet Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 15/02/2015 at 14:32 #69222 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
So with all the trains in, I take a couple of different approaches depending on the type of timetable. For those with complex operations, it can be worth running the partial timetables through at high speed. This was most useful for the loco hauled trains in my Edinburgh 1993 and CScot 1984 timetables. The reduced number of trains and ARS allow relatively quick bug finding. For other sims (and KGX1964 is one) the main issue is platforming and also checking out if the diagramming I have assigned is reasonable. For this the timetables need to be merged and the main tool is the TT_Analysis.txt file. This is in the timetable editor and produces a file listing all trains passing each location / platform. As the later file is more comprehensive, I load the merged timetable into the loader sim to generate the analysis file. This shows up any double platform occupations, which show up like this: 05:43 E-- 1E71 22:30 Edinburgh - London 07:32 E-- 5S01 ECS Kings Cross P3 07:42 --B 5E71 ECS Ferme Park 08:00 --B 1S01 08:00 London - Edinburgh - TALISMAN 10:25 E-- 5S04 ECS Kings Cross P4 10:30 E-- 1A07 07:30 Leeds / 0700 Bradford - London WEST RIDING 11:00 --B 1S04 11:00 London - Aberdeen / Glasgow 13:04 --B 1G08 13:04 London - Leeds I find this easier on paper and can write down the corrections ! Sometimes it is moving trains between platforms but this: 09:08 E-- 2C14 07:50 Royston - London 09:29 E-- 2L08 08:01 Luton - Kings Cross 09:34 --B 2C15 09:34 London - Baldock 09:36 E-- 2C16 07:45 Cambridge - London 09:40 --B 2D15 09:40 Kings Cross - Welwyn Garden City 10:25 --B 2A09 10:25 London - Peterborough could also be fixed by changing stock diagrams. The analysis file also allows the balance of stock to be checked, and in the case of KGX1964 showed up some major problems. Too many DMU started at Hitchin and ended at Hornsey ! There were more morning up trains than evening downs but I had them the same length. This required quite a bit of alterations to train lengths and added or removed ECS. Several diagrams then made more sense, so I was heading in the right direction. The text file of timetables (only on exe sims for now) allowed trains to simply be moved across. It took a couple of edit - print - check cycles to get it all consistent. Finally, with the timetable around version 4 it was time to run the passenger timetables together. I usually add freight last on historic timetables unless I have accurate data. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 26/02/2015 at 00:34 #69603 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
JANUARY 2015 At long last, or so it seems, I have actually run the timetable in the sim ! In fact I have done nearer two runs as there was a fundamental flaw. So there's now 6 pages of A4 corrections to deal with and below are some of the fairly typical errors that came up: A major rules error, noticed by several trains not entering. I had used '2E04 enters 12 minutes after 2M04 passes Dalston' as the means to link trains to and from Broad Street that returned immediately. That rule does not work and nothing ever came back. Replaced with '2E04 enters 12 minutes after 2M04 leaves the area' I could make platforming a bit easier, and set up opportunities to get back to booked platforms by some moving about of trains. This will also make it easier if/when I add loco release etc to the timetable if I allow 15 or 20 minutes between departures and arrivals in any one platform. The xx30 arrivals are into P11, and there is also an xx30 departure from P9 in the daytime clockface timetable. These should be swapped over so that they do not clash. Various 'stopping' Cambridge trains really need fast lines to Hatfield, and to use main station platforms. Perhaps some more of these were hauled and not all DMU even ? A few typos in times. Some ECS clash with other trains, so again a bit of retiming needed. The parcels trains seem to lose quite a bit of time. Still not fully balanced the DMU diagrams between Hitchin Up and Down sides. Last edited: 26/02/2015 at 00:34 by bill_gensheet Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 06/04/2015 at 21:18 #70843 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Update from work over Easter v06, still passenger only, created by putting in the corrections from the first run through into the text files. Quite a bit of changing around of platforms at Kings Cross, so not surprising to find a few errors when putting back into SimSig and doing a check. Also balanced Hitchin up and down sides by sending a few more ECS into the down yard (where the DMU depot was back then) Merged the timetables in the loader sim and ran analysis. Now to check this on screen for any further bugs caused by moving things around, expect I created a few platform occupation issues. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 15/04/2015 at 23:00 #71148 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Good news (if a bit of a distraction), a 1966 freight WTT has been obtained
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| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 26/04/2015 at 00:14 #71448 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
By comparison to the SimSig trackplan, one from 1969. https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/15990737357/in/photostream/ Of most note to me is that access to the suburban station was from the fast line and of course crossed the whole 'down' layout. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/04/2015 at 08:52 #71474 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:By comparison to the SimSig trackplan, one from 1969. It was a wonderful mess wasn't it. Also of note: the access to P1 from the up slow, with just No. 8 points between the bobby and the up Talisman heading off to Moorgate. Never happened but I recall my father saying they lived daily in fear that it would! Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 27/04/2015 at 10:16 #71481 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Keith, please tell us more. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 28/04/2015 at 08:24 #71499 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:" said:By comparison to the SimSig trackplan, one from 1969. Here goes Barry... as best I can recall (this goes back the best part of 40 years and it was just something I picked up from my father talking about his day at work - at the time he was Area Inspector at The Cross and so got very involved in that sort of event). I imagine you can see where it says 'To Moorgate' just above & to the right of the signalbox symbol; last signal on that line is the co-acting No. 4 with another head below it - this signal is in fact an UndergrounD signal seen in the 3rd & 4th pictures on this page http://www.roscalen.com/signals/London/KXFP.htm#KingsX complete with UndergrounD signal plates. (OJ was the LT interlocking designation for Kings X Met cabin, itself later converted to an Interlocking Machine Room controlled from Farringdon.) Enough background. In those days, the GN Moorgate service ran up via York Way platform which was in rear of KX4/OJ1 (return being via the notorious Hotel Curve that emerged in Kings X platform 16). At Moorgate it ran into platforms later turned over to the St Pancras service (pre Thameslink), but with a rather different layout - single platforms, each with an engine dock at the country end. One platform was allocated to the GN service and one to the Midland service. Loco hauled non-corridor stock remained in use on the GN right up to electrification (the Midland got all modern, with DMUs), and the drill was that a turnover engine had to go down to Moorgate before the peak and be put in the engine dock, when an up train arrived the turnover engine came on the rear for the outgoing working and the incoming engine went to the dock before the next train arrived. There was a rather strict length limit. This being London Transport lines, their rules applied at Moorgate. So on the day in question, an up suburban train (not sure what platform it should have run to) had been directed via York Road to Moorgate and the unfortunate driver had accepted the signal. Unfortunately it was too long for Moorgate, so the turnover engine was trapped in the dock. There was plenty of room to propel the train out onto the down line, which would have allowed the engine out of the dock to set back behind the up line inlet signal; the train could then have been got back into the platform and the turnover engine put on from there. A few minutes lost, I'm sure, but nothing too disastrous. But this being LT the rules didn't allow such shenanigins. So the overlength train had to sit there with the turnover engine stuck impotently in the dock while a fresh engine was whistled up from Clarence Yard and put on the rear, with the full panoply of LT 'failed train' procedures. The Moorgate service, meanwhile, was diverted to the already-congested Kings X (with that wonderful entry from the up fast to the suburban station that Bill mentions). I think driver and signalman alike were somewhat less than popular that morning. Which leads us to the Talisman. Booked into P1, presumably via the up slow (to allow the suburban incubus proceedings on the fast to get to the suburban side). And worked by Kings X men who knew the Moorgate road and presumably worked down there on other turns in the link. Just imagine that arriving at Moorgate in the middle of the morning peak! :woohoo: Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 03/05/2015 at 19:49 #71677 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Update: Main freight timetable now entered in SimSig. I expect testing of this, on its' own, to be bad and a lot of timings to be out and might need a few extra train types. This also makes me think I need to swap around a lot of the passenger stock working to get closer to 1964. however the passenger timetable itself is now running fairly well. Just in time to break it by adding the freight ! Bill Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross 1964 timetable blog 25/08/2015 at 19:40 #75446 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Now released the passenger timetable in 'Downloads' as this satisfies the original aim of a reasonably entertaining, one person timetable for Kings Cross. There is a full description file included in the zip, with links to various images. It is a beginners 'passenger only' timetable using the 1964 public timetable but with modern operating and train formations. Up to the user to choose between fleets of blue pullmans, Deltics with DBSO's or even 309's. There are 700 trains running from 0000 to 2700. The running times are true to 1964 but train formations, reporting numbers and ECS are not accurate. The most likely errors are around which suburban services were hauled or DMU. Future releases (no timescales !) should include freight (from 1966) and at least some loco changes (parcel & sleepers). Bill Log in to reply The following users said thank you: flabberdacks, Oddjob |
