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| Signalling a train too long for the platform 28/05/2016 at 09:40 #82693 | |
postal
5264 posts |
One for those who know the signalling rules! In a TT which is currently being developed, there is a situation on a through platform where a passenger train which is overlength to the platform needs to stop with the loco hanging off the front of the platform. This is to ensure that the rear of the train is not lying foul of a crossover needed for a shunt move from the train. Writing the TT is not difficult as you just set the stopping position as FX @ -XX metres. However, the signalling is more problematic. It may even be different depending on the era which is being discussed. Does the train have to be signalled through to the next main signal, locking up that end of the station while the shunt takes place, or can it be signalled forward only to the next shunt signal which keeps it short of the point where it locks up other routes? And were the rules any different in earlier days? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 28/05/2016 at 15:03 #82696 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
As far as the Rules and TGB Regulations go, I would say that you would have to give the train a full signal. However, if this was a regular move there could be something written in the box footnotes (Special Instructions to the Signalman) allowing use of a shunt signal. Kev Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 28/05/2016 at 16:44 #82697 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:As far as the Rules and TGB Regulations go, I would say that you would have to give the train a full signal. However, if this was a regular move there could be something written in the box footnotes (Special Instructions to the Signalman) allowing use of a shunt signal.Kev I was hoping something like that would be the case as it is a daily scheduled move. All we need now is a copy of the SBSIs from several years ago! If they are not extant, there could be a case for some artistic licence. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 28/05/2016 at 16:46 by postal Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 28/05/2016 at 18:05 #82699 | |
AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:I was hoping something like that would be the case as it is a daily scheduled move. All we need now is a copy of the SBSIs from several years ago! If they are not extant, there could be a case for some artistic licence.I'm sure Keith Barber will come up with the info, and no doubt some related anecdotes too. 
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 28/05/2016 at 18:22 #82700 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
I have some SBSIs, what's the location in question?
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| Signalling a train too long for the platform 28/05/2016 at 18:59 #82702 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:I have some SBSIs, what's the location in question?PM'd you “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 09:27 #82777 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:" said:I was hoping something like that would be the case as it is a daily scheduled move. All we need now is a copy of the SBSIs from several years ago! If they are not extant, there could be a case for some artistic licence.I'm sure Keith Barber will come up with the info, and no doubt some related anecdotes too. ;) Not one I ever came across, I'm afraid, so no anecdotes. Like Kev, I'd expect to use the main signal unless there was an authority in the SBSIs ('Block Card' around my way, 'Footnotes' was a (G)W term) - or, perhaps, in the Sectional Appendix (it being the sort of thing the driver would need to know as well, as he'd otherwise be within his rights to refuse a dummy). Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 11:11 #82781 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
Are there any instances in the UK where some of the cars will also be off the platform with the crew only opening the doors on cars that do platform and instructing passengers in other cars to walk back?
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| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 11:19 #82782 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
Frome is one location that springs to mind as well as some stations in Cornwall such as Hayle and Lostwithiel. Also when the HSTs still ran daily to Cleethorpes until 1993, after leaving Newark several stations had special instructions to leave from a certain carriage as the rear portion would be well off the platform ends. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 11:33 #82783 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
Thanks to all for the input. As ever, lots of people with far more knowledge and experience than I willing to jump in and help. For the particular train which raised the question I think we have found a timetable solution so that the train will be signalled to the main signal and will then depart without blocking the job for too long. That comes with the proviso that the train doesn't decide to sit down and wait for booked time when the "set-down only" option is selected. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 11:36 #82785 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:Also when the HSTs still ran daily to Cleethorpes until 1993, after leaving Newark several stations had special instructions to leave from a certain carriage as the rear portion would be well off the platform ends.I'm surprised it wasn't the front end off the platform. Fancy making the toffs walk forward through the train rather than telling the punters in the steerage to move along now, please. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 12:21 #82786 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
" said:Are there any instances in the UK where some of the cars will also be off the platform with the crew only opening the doors on cars that do platform and instructing passengers in other cars to walk back?Maybe best in another thread, but this is pretty common here. About a fortnight back I was required for work in Durrington on Sea, during the Southern strike. This meant I had to get to Brighton then get a West Coastway service. Because so much was cancelled they were making use of 377s (I think?) in pairs (8 car trains) - every station except Hove and Worthing had door restrictions (front 5, 6 or 7 coaches only). The on board information system was having a fit. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 13:01 #82787 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
" said:" said:Long Eaton isnt long enough for HSTs and 7 car Meridians so they use SDO to allow trains to stop. Theres a few locations in Cornwall that have a Similar set up with HST sets as well.Are there any instances in the UK where some of the cars will also be off the platform with the crew only opening the doors on cars that do platform and instructing passengers in other cars to walk back?Maybe best in another thread, but this is pretty common here. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 13:04 #82788 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
" said:Frome is one location that springs to mind as well as some stations in Cornwall such as Hayle and Lostwithiel.Tom you've Jogged my memory there! Back when it was Britannias and B1s there was a shunt move for Cross trains to change locos at Grimsby which was overlength with train shunting forwards and backwards (naturally blocking both crossings!) But I'm not sure if main or shunt signals were used. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 14:30 #82792 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
I should probably add that the signalling at certain locations was designed to cope with a train that had reversed in but was slightly too long. My 1979 sectional appendix makes reference to the platform starters at York displaying a sub if the train that had come in was too long to fit. Digressing slightly, Paisley SC when migrated to WSSCC had 'standing out' controls at several locations which allows an incoming train to depart under clear signals if the first track beyond the platform starter is occupied although these are no longer used. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 16:16 #82796 | |
Steamer
3984 posts 
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" said:Are there any instances in the UK where some of the cars will also be off the platform with the crew only opening the doors on cars that do platform and instructing passengers in other cars to walk back?Quite a few. How it's handled depends on the type of stock; some have Selective Door Opening fitted, so the doors will release on all platformed carriages with announcements in the train stating which doors will open. At other locations- where the platforms are very short, or SDO isn't fitted to the stock- the guard opens a single door and everyone enters and exits through that. The stations where that's necessary don't usually have a lot of passengers boarding and alighting, so it works without a problem. Sometimes, a train is formed of two or more units coupled together, which aren't fitted with end gangways and don't have SDO. If the platforms on the route are only long enough for a single unit, one unit (usually the rear one) is locked out of use, and the doors on the front unit operated normally. That tends to happen on very early or late evening services, where a second unit is hooked on the back as a convenient way of getting it to/from a depot, and the demand isn't high enough to require two units. For example, there are a few services in/out of Liverpool Lime Street that are formed of two four-car 319s, as a way of getting the units to and from Allerton. As most of the platforms on the route can't take 8 cars (and don't need to- 4 is enough for the demand) the rear unit is locked out of use. I have heard of one instance (on a rush hour Manchester- Southport service, calling at one of the smaller stations between Wigan and Southport) where a 4-car (formed as 2x2-car) was needed for the demand, but the platforms couldn't take 4. If one of the units was non-gangwayed, the train stopped once, the doors of the front unit were opened and closed, then the train moved forwards to allow the doors of the rear unit to be opened. This is very, very rare though. " said: I should probably add that the signalling at certain locations was designed to cope with a train that had reversed in but was slightly too long. My 1979 sectional appendix makes reference to the platform starters at York displaying a sub if the train that had come in was too long to fit.On a similar theme, didn't Glasgow Queen Street have miniature signals facing forward on a couple of the platform starters, mainly for the benefit of the twice-a-day HST service, which was too long for the platform? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 19:56 #82801 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:Long Eaton isnt long enough for HSTs and 7 car Meridians so they use SDO to allow trains to stop. Theres a few locations in Cornwall that have a Similar set up with HST sets as well. There's no SDO on the HSTs - it's all reliant on 'grandfather rights', announcements on the train and passengers doing as they're told! Slightly curiously, before the platform extension at Loughborough, Up HSTs used to stop with the rear part of the train adjacent to the operational length of the platform (approx 4 vehicles) - so that anyone trying to alight from any other door would at least step straight out onto the disused part of the platform south of the road overbridge instead of descending rapidly to ballast level... Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 20:15 #82804 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:Just for the record of people reading this in the future... GWR HSTs are fitted with SDO, all the other operators HSTs aren't.Long Eaton isnt long enough for HSTs and 7 car Meridians so they use SDO to allow trains to stop. Theres a few locations in Cornwall that have a Similar set up with HST sets as well. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 20:52 #82807 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:I should probably add that the signalling at certain locations was designed to cope with a train that had reversed in but was slightly too long. My 1979 sectional appendix makes reference to the platform starters at York displaying a sub if the train that had come in was too long to fit.Various places used to have signals that would clear even if the loco was standing beyond them; the starters at St.Pancras were an example. They had OFF indicators on the back for the driver to see. These were stencils and were officially amber, not yellow - the only case I know of where a signal or indication is described as amber. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 21:16 #82808 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:" said:" said:Just for the record of people reading this in the future... GWR HSTs are fitted with SDO, all the other operators HSTs aren't.Long Eaton isnt long enough for HSTs and 7 car Meridians so they use SDO to allow trains to stop. Theres a few locations in Cornwall that have a Similar set up with HST sets as well. Quite correct, of course, and apologies - I was referring just to the HSTs that stop at Long Eaton, but that wasn't clear. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 31/05/2016 at 21:39 #82810 | |
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LucasLCC
94 posts |
My personal favourite is Westbury, where if the platform starter is showing a danger aspect, then a HST will overhang in the up direction, so that Coach A will not fit on the platform. Meaning that bikes were always stored in the front power car. St James Park is another example, where two coaches fit on the up platform, meaning anything longer comes unstuck. If there are two 153's in formation then they overhang the platform too. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 01/06/2016 at 05:54 #82819 | |
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Hugh Jampton
69 posts |
" said:Daily, in the morning and evening, Bristol Temple Meads - Paddington HSTs are extended to/from Taunton and beyond. Just southwest of Bristol, HSTs stop at short platforms at Nailsea & Backwell, Yatton and Burnham-on-Sea, with SDO in use and the standard class coaches platformed. This is not popular amongst first class travellers. Last edited: 01/06/2016 at 05:55 by Hugh Jampton Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 01/06/2016 at 19:38 #82850 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
That also happens when GWR HSTs stop at Oldfield Park, which is unusual but does happen, usually if a stopping service is late or has been cancelled. When HSTs used to stop regularly at Grimsby Town, the middle of the train would be in the station, the front would be past the signal and blocking a level crossing, and the rear would still be blocking the level crossing at the other end of the station. Incidentally, in semaphore days it was one of those quite common locations where the "platform starter" signals were actually home signals. I can't remember whether the semaphores disappeared before the HSTs or vice-versa, but it happened at around the same time. Log in to reply |
| Signalling a train too long for the platform 01/06/2016 at 20:14 #82853 | |
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GW43125
495 posts |
In fact, most platforms north of Oxford on the Worcester line are not long enough for a full HST rake. Closer to London, Slough is slightly too short too Log in to reply |