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| rules on late running against on time trains 10/08/2016 at 23:02 #84046 | |
08wrighta
26 posts |
Hi, So I was driving on my train sim 2016 and driving as 1C98 the 2035 Lodnon Paddington to Plymouth when this happened in real life at castle cary, Network rail are trying to explain to me on twitter but i still don't understand, So 1C98 (passenger) was running on time heading in from castle cary from westbury where it last stopped, and was booked into p2 at 22:14 to 22:16. 104Z (diesel locomotive carrying 245 tonnes) was running 21mins late from yeovil pen mill going to bristol via westbury non stopping via p2 and 2O98 was running on time booked to stop at castle cary at 22:07 to 22:08 in p3 2O98 was held in p3 while the 104z made its way up, the 1C98 was then held outside castle cary for 10 mins while 104z made its way up through p2 and on its way, 2O98 then departed and 1C98 arrived and departed So then I tweeted Network rail "since when is a class 1 passenger held 10mins for a late running parcel train, for a class 2 passenger to depart?" To which they replied, "Apologies for any delay Alex, in these cases the departure orders are chosen based on what would allow the majority of services along the routes to operate close to the scheduled timetable as possible. Again, apologies if you were affected" SO a few follow up questions, 1) dont on time trains had priority over late running trains? 2) dont passenger trains have priority over freight? 3) I accept holding the 1C98 but if it was going to be 10mins surely the 1C98 would have been able to go through with all that time? 4) are the passenger and on time trains real rules, or just a generally accept idea and not really a rule? 5) does the single line change everything in terms of who should go first? 6) if network rail aim to departure in timetable schedule, what is the point in having a class priority system in place? Sorry such a long post, just was curious if that was the right thing to have happened and why given passenger and class priorities Log in to reply |
| rules on late running against on time trains 10/08/2016 at 23:08 #84048 | |
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08wrighta
26 posts |
Forgot to say, that 2O98 departed 11 mins late from castle cary waiting, not sure if it has any relevance
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| rules on late running against on time trains 10/08/2016 at 23:10 #84049 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
I actually don't understand if this actually happened, or whether this was all in train simulator ? What it basically boils down to is ensuring all the trains hit PPM (Public Performance Measure) generally within 10 minutes arrival time for long distance services, and 5 minutes for shorter distance services. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| rules on late running against on time trains 10/08/2016 at 23:57 #84050 | |
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08wrighta
26 posts |
no, it happened in real life only added "the train sim" bit to add context in terms of how I came acrossed it, So in other words, does not matter what happens or goes first etc as long as they reach their destination in good time? curious do freight have ppm?, never seen or heard of them publishing that data if it does exist Log in to reply |
| rules on late running against on time trains 11/08/2016 at 00:05 #84051 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts |
This happened this evening? First if 104Z isn't the headcode, all trains operated by FOCs have their headcodes obfuscated in publicly accessible systems such as realtimetrains and opentraintimes. The correct identity is 1Q05, which I will be using through the rest of my post. The first thing you have to remember is that Castle Cary to Yeovil Pen Mill is a single line section, with approximately 20 minutes running time. South of Yeovil are two other single line sections, with a passing loop at Maiden Newton, each of which is again, 10-20 minutes running time. 1Q05 is a Network Rail test train, it has programme of lines to survey in its day before stabling for the night, and strict instructions on exactly what platforms/crossovers etc to run on. It turned up at Yeovil this evening roughly 20L already, with other work to complete before various possessions were taken in the Bristol area. It also turned up at Yeovil roughly 10 minutes before 2O98 reached Castle Cary. While it was the last Northbound service on the Weymouth line this evening, there was still much ground to cover - holding it at Yeovil for the Southbound Weymouth service would have left it 60+ late and start to significantly impact on possessions this evening. Right decision was therefore taken to hold 2O98 in pf3, out the way at Castle Cary. 1Q05 was sent on from Yeovil 21L, and it appears the Signalman at Westbury had the road off through the station for 1Q05 as soon as it was sent on from Yeovil - had the train remained 21L it might have checked 1C98 down to a stand, but not for 10 minutes as you allege. 1Q05 inexplicably went from reporting 21L Yeovil to 29L Castle Cary - Delay Attribution still have these 8 minutes of delay coded as "FOC Unexplained" - for whatever reason it's obviously taken longer to traverse the single line. The Signalman at Westbury doesn't know exactly where on the single line the train is, just that it is taking longer. They've committed (in good faith) to "giving it a run" in order to get it across in front of 1C98, and the additional delay has bitten them. They can't throw the road back because he's taking too long, they just have to sweat it out. If you want to play the blame game it's 1Q05 overtime in section, but contrary to popular belief the railway doesn't work like that! **** Priority is much, much more complex than on time vs delayed or Class 1 vs Class 2. I tried to explain it once in a multiplayer to a fellow SimSigger who was holding stopping trains at Birmingham International for Fasts to overtake, even though the stopper was due to arrive at New Street first. To specifically answer your questions, from a controller's perspective- 1) Generally yes, but the big picture plays a significant part. 2) As per 1. 3) With 20/20 hindsight, 1C98 would have gone first. The fact it was held by almost exactly the amount of time 1Q05 lost in section should demonstrate the signalman's thinking however. 4) They're not real rules no, they're by-products of freight train speed and acceleration vs passenger trains. 5) The single line has a huge impact on regulation. The aim is then to preserve timekeeping on the single line (which at other times of day could easily snowball and disrupt the train service for hours) 6) Train class identifies to the signalman what sort of train they are signalling, and the kind of performance they can expect from it. It confers no level of priority. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Gwasanaethau, Forest Pines, Finger, KymriskaDraken, MJD, 08wrighta, WinsfordSaltMine |
| rules on late running against on time trains 11/08/2016 at 15:00 #84054 | |
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08wrighta
26 posts |
Thanks james for that lovely insight, and very well explained, Just a few things to clarify, it did happen this evening or yesterday evening (10th August 10pm) 1) I did not know or have the information that 104z (1q05) was a network rail test train, i know freight codes arent shown but with no way of getting that info I had to relate somehow, 2) I agree the 2O98 had to wait, i just was not sure if 1C98 had to also, 3) Well All I know using railcam and realtime 1C98 left through bruton on time and arrived at castle cary 10mins late, probably not a stand for that long but in the same signal block as i was watching it live As great western tweeted to me after "Thanks root cause for delay not attributed yet. -Ollie" which what I take from that, is the delay is not calculated until it gets to its final destination at which they then add to the delays of numbers of what caused the delay (signaller, train, network rail (infrastructure) etc, is this right? I guess it is more about timetable regulation rather than ensuring trains get to places on time, as otherwise they will be out of sync and order for their next order. Just out of interest and adding context and keeping things fair, The 1C98 arrived into plymouth 5mins and 45 seconds late on wtt(4 and 45 on public timetable) 2O98 arrived into weymouth 1min and 45seconds late 104z or 1Q05 arrived in to bristol high siding 25mins late but was running 9mins through bath spa before whatever delayed that further Log in to reply |
| rules on late running against on time trains 11/08/2016 at 15:09 #84055 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:Thanks james for that lovely insight, and very well explained,What GWR are saying is that the cause of the delay had yet to be attributed, not that the delay hadn't been calculated. It takes time to investigate the cause of a delay but the train doesn't have to get to its destination before this is attributed. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 08wrighta |
| rules on late running against on time trains 12/08/2016 at 15:12 #84060 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts 
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" said:As great western tweeted to me after "Thanks root cause for delay not attributed yet. -Ollie"The delay is already known (automated reporting points, and you and James have already quoted figures). What Ollie is saying (good bloke BTW) is that the reason for the delay is as yet unexplained. It depends on what happened: some delay attribution is entered as soon as it happens, ie within minutes of it happening. Other times it might not be until the end of the journey when the crew might be asked, or the next day, or after an investigation, or even not at all occasionally. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 08wrighta |
| rules on late running against on time trains 12/08/2016 at 16:12 #84062 | |
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08wrighta
26 posts |
oh yes that makes sense, thanks headshot and Geoff, and espically James for helping in this area 
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