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| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 02/02/2017 at 12:25 #91906 | |
Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
I've just purchased the 3 Rugby sims and found that the latest Rugby North sim (v1.2 build 3) reports 53 'Invalid Timetable Data' errors on the standard 15-Oct-09 WTT when the analyser is run. Using the TT Editor's 'verify' function, the majority report 'No paths found between location Lichfield North Jn and location Lichfield Trent Valley LL' when a train is timetabled from Up TV Fast to Up TV Slow at Lichfield North Jn in order to call at Lichfield Trent Valley LL station. No alternative paths are suggested by the Editor, which is what I've normally got when wrong paths are detected by the Editor. There are also other path problems in that area of the sim, 4Q70 being one of them. When I revert back to v1.1 of the sim (from a backup), the only error reported on the same WTT is for 4Q70, so it looks as though v1.2.3 of the sim has introduced some quite severe pathing problems. Is this a known problem that has already been logged on Mantis or a new one that I've unearthed? Either way, an expedited fix would be appreciated so I can get full value from my £39.99 investment. Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 02/02/2017 at 13:46 #91907 | |
Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
Lyn, 16541 on Mantis, marked high priority.
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| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 02/02/2017 at 16:13 #91908 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
Thanks, Stephen. I look forward to seeing a new release in the (hopefully) not too distant future. Is there any documentation available that itemises what changed in the update of the Rugby North sim from v1.1 to v1.2.3 (similar to what Geoff used to provide for the updates to the Loader, but which don't seem to have appeared since August 2016)? Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 02/02/2017 at 18:08 #91909 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
The latest version is actually v1.2 (not sure why it's showing .3 tbh), the documentation for it I in the manual in the wikihttps://www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=simulations:rugbynorth. Nothing has changed between v 1.1 & v1.2 to have caused the paths to break. I will investigate it at the earliest opportunity (Working all weekend this weekend, sorry). Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 02/02/2017 at 21:49 #91913 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
Noisynoel in post 91909 said:The latest version is actually v1.2 (not sure why it's showing .3 tbh), the documentation for it I in the manual in the wikihttps://www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=simulations:rugbynorth.Thanks for the speedy reply, Noel. The sim 'Help/About' menu gives 'Version 1.2 Build 3', so it really is version 1.2, as you say. I've had a look in the Wiki at the fixes implemented in 'v1.2 (12-May-16)' and believe the last line of that, which reads 'Various missing paths in Lichfield Area', will most likely have something to do with the current problem. I hope you manage to sort everything out fairly easily. Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 03/02/2017 at 07:03 #91921 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
The bug was "various missing paths" that was rectified by adding them, certainly not by removing any
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 03/02/2017 at 07:56 #91922 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
It's been fixed and sent to Geoff for release
Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Lyn-Greenwood |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 03/02/2017 at 17:57 #91933 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Noisynoel in post 91922 said:It's been fixed and sent to Geoff for releaseUnfortunately a new bug has appeared so Noel will have to fix this when he can. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 18/02/2017 at 22:10 #93197 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
GeoffM in post 91933 said:Noisynoel in post 91922 said:Two more weeks have now passed without any further progress, which is very disappointing after the initial rapid response to my reporting of the problem.It's been fixed and sent to Geoff for releaseUnfortunately a new bug has appeared so Noel will have to fix this when he can. Is a working update to be expected in the fairly near future? Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 19/02/2017 at 00:37 #93201 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Your Mantis 16541 is in a queue and will be attended to as quickly as possible Time marches on! Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 19/02/2017 at 06:36 #93203 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
Sorry, I work for a living
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 19/02/2017 at 09:22 #93204 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Noisynoel in post 93203 said:Sorry, I work for a livingWith all due respect to Noel and all of the other developers and testers who give lots of time to SimSig for what is probably a meagre reward for the payware sims, I think this does open up a problem. Once you are into payware rather than donationware you are entering the murky field of customer rights, brand reputation etc, etc. As far as I am aware, Geoff has always refunded money to those who think a sim is not of acceptable quality. However I don't think that is really a successful business model. And to effectively say to people that you have taken their money and then are too busy to correct errors is insulting to say the least. Obviously SimSig is a part-time activity for most of those involved in development and release of sims but is there a way for another developer to assist if the writer of the sim has other priorities when a bug is reported? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: KymriskaDraken, Lyn-Greenwood, MikeW, Steamer, northroad, 304033, BarryM, Temple Meads |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 19/02/2017 at 18:02 #93221 | |
northroad
872 posts |
Noisynoel in post 93203 said:Sorry, I work for a livingI tend to agree with postal on this comment. I have often wondered what the priorities are with problems reported to mantis for resolution. Are they prioritised by sim and if it is a pay ware sim or donation sim that dictates. Are they all treated equal and in order of number and is work on new simulations to the detriment of resolving older sims and their problems. Whilst appreciating that developers and testers do have a life other than sim sig it is only natural that if someone pays for something then they should expect it to work. Perhaps some words as to how the resolution system works may help others understand and then have the patience to wait a while before airing a gripe. Geoff Last edited: 19/02/2017 at 18:03 by northroad Reason: Spelling Log in to reply The following users said thank you: KymriskaDraken, Temple Meads |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 19/02/2017 at 22:55 #93227 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
Noisynoel in post 93203 said:Sorry, I work for a livingI'm absolutely amazed at this kind of attitude from a Developer who has been involved with SimSig for quite a long time. It's as though he doesn't really care about his own reputation and, more importantly, the reputation of SimSig. He also doesn't seem to care about the poor users who have ended up owning a sim that doesn't work as it should. The sim was updated from version 1.1 to version 1.2 in May 2016 to fix various problems, one of which was to add some missing Paths in the Lichfield area. Unfortunately, adding these new Paths somehow caused even more Path problems in that area. I reported these new problems at the end of January and was pleased that the Developer took prompt action to fix them. He released version 1.3 on the 2nd of February, edited the Wiki entry accordingly and posted that he had sent an updated version to Geoff for distribution. However, later that day Geoff reported that a new bug had unfortunately been introduced and the problem passed back to the Developer for sorting out. Now, two weeks later, we're still waiting for the Developer to release a fixed version 1.3, even though the Wiki still refers to v1.3 as being the current version. This is not what I call good 'After Sales Service'. It's a pity that the Developer didn't more thoroughly test the changes he had made to the Lichfield area Paths before he released version 1.2 last year. I discovered the problems immediately after I purchased the sim when I ran the tt analyser on the supplied 15-Oct-09 timetable, so I'm sure the Developer would have found them had he done more thorough testing. Imagine how you'd feel if you'd bought a Smart TV that updated its software overnight causing it to lose 53 channels (this is the number of trains that don't enter the Rugby North sim because of the Path problems) and when you reported the problem to the manufacturer, all you got was 'We're too busy to fix the problem'. You'd probably say 'Hang on, you updated the software, not me, so it's up to you to fix it PDQ'. I know TVs are expensive and SimSig packages aren't, but the principle is the same. I'll just have to enjoy running Rugby South and Rugby Centre until Rugby North gets fixed, but it's a shame that the quality of the latter sim doesn't match up to that of the other two. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: KymriskaDraken, 304033, Temple Meads |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 20/02/2017 at 18:32 #93237 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
northroad in post 93221 said:Noisynoel in post 93203 said:Firstly This might become a very long response, and I can only talk for how I use Mantis, each developer will be slightly different in there approach.Sorry, I work for a livingI tend to agree with postal on this comment. I have often wondered what the priorities are with problems reported to mantis for resolution. An issue comes to light on the forum, someone with access to Mantis (it might be a tester or a developer) will open a ticket describing the issue, they'll also post a link on the ticket back to the original forum post, which is useful if you need to ask the user for more information. Opening a ticket gives you a reference number for example #0012345, that can be used to lookup a ticket quickly, the person opening the ticket normally posts this reference number into the thread. A ticket contains various bits of information: ID - The ticket number Project - What simulation, or other project it applies to (core code, website etc) Category - Bug, timetable, question, suggestion (each developer can set custom fields to this as well) Date Submitted Last Update Reporter - Who logged it Assigned to - Who the ticket been assigned to Severity - How bad is the problem Reproduciblity - Can the problem be replicated Status - Where is the ticket at (New, Assigned, Resolved etc) Summary - A brief summary of the problem (S123 no routes) Description - More detail about the problem Steps to Reproduce - How to reproduce the fault Additional Information - Even more detail Notes can then be added to the bottom of the ticket by anyone with Mantis access. In my case, one or two of my testers quite often get to a ticket before I do, and will see if they can reproduce it, or check it against the source data, this saves some time with dealing with an issue, as there might not be an issue at all. Depending how serious the ticket is, they might drop me a text message or email to say you need to look at this. I check Mantis once or twice a day (most days). I check what is assigned to me, and isn't resolved. I can see at a glance what project each ticket is for, how severe it is, and what the status of each is. I'll look at each ticket, starting with the highest priority ones, and work my way down. I'll tend to look at payware simulations first, then donationware ones. As for how quick I push an update out, if it's a show stopper, I'll try and get an update at ASAP, if it's fairly trivial, I'll wait till I release a batch of updates. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: KymriskaDraken, northroad, Lyn-Greenwood |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 20/02/2017 at 20:53 #93244 | |
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northroad
872 posts |
Thank you for the detailed response headshot. It has given me an excellent insight as to what goes on behind the scenes and hopefully others also now appreciate what goes on to sort some of these bugs and problems out. Geoff Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 21/02/2017 at 15:02 #93254 | |
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Lyn-Greenwood
240 posts |
Karl's explanation of how he deals with Mantis bug reports is very informative indeed and we can rest assured that any bug reports for his sims will be dealt with in a logical and professional manner. However, as he says, each Developer has his own approach to dealing with bug reports and my recent gripe about the Developer of the Rugby North sim is his apparent lack of enthusiasm to correct the bugs that he managed to introduce during the sim upgrade from version 1.1 to 1.2 (and which somehow managed to get through whatever testing regime he has in place). I must thank him, however, for his rapid response when I reported the problem at the end of January. He very quickly prepared version 1.3 of the sim to fix the problems, but managed to introduce another bug, so the updated sim was not released to users. Since then, nothing more seems to have happened and he seems to have lost interest in sorting out the problems. Anyway, I've had my say and there's nothing more I can do except sit back and wait for a fixed version of the sim to appear. However, I have to say that I will be very wary of purchasing any future sims that he releases unless his attitude towards 'After Sales Service' is seen to improve. Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 21/02/2017 at 16:52 #93256 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
Yet again it appears that people forget what goes on behind the scenes. I am just one developer and can not speak for the rest however, I will point out that we all do this in our free time and have other full time jobs to do, we all, I believe, do this because we enjoy doing it, it certainly isn't for financial reward because what we get in minimal. On top of that the testers we all use test and get NO re-imbursement what so ever. No whilst some devs have the opportunity to look at Mantis twice a day, I do not have that luxury and only get to look at it on the odd occasion at the moment. I'm sorry if the odd few of you don't think this is good enough but until Geoff can equal the pay I receive in my day job then that will not change. If this is not to your satisfaction, then please, feel free to be wary of any of the sims I build. Also remember that I am only a human like the rest of you, I make mistakes, like the rest of you, I corrected them and get them tested. I, like previously mentioned, have to use unpaid testers that have no incentive. If they do not tell me of any bugs then I have to assume there is none. On a side note, I don't see many complaints about other sims I've release, like Maidstone East & Huddersfield! Right at this very moment in time I am on the verge of turning my back on SimSig, no more developing, no more testing and no more timetable writing (I hold all the stock books that we use for the 15-10-09 timetable series that chain across 90% of the sims!) all because I get abuse on here for trying to do my best and then again on Skype when I try helping others and offering assistance. That means the sims I currently have in build will get scrapped and the data for them will walk with me. Just out of curiosity I complained about not getting a clear picture on Sky two months ago but am still waiting for it to be fixed. Should I be wary of them now? Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DriverCurran |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 21/02/2017 at 17:10 #93258 | |
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njimiller
142 posts |
Noel, I for one appreciate all the work you do on Simsig. I play many of the sims for which you have written timetables for hours on end. For all the developers, testers etc who devote time to make this such an excellent and realistic product like no other out there - thanks! I have a busy job/life and have many things often racing through the mind. Playing Simsig is a massive relaxation tool for me. So, Noel, please be aware of the positive difference your work makes to me and presumably many others here. Nick Log in to reply The following users said thank you: DriverCurran, wigley62 |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 21/02/2017 at 17:19 #93260 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Noisynoel in post 93256 said:Right at this very moment in time I am on the verge of turning my back on SimSig, no more developing, no more testing and no more timetable writing (I hold all the stock books that we use for the 15-10-09 timetable series that chain across 90% of the sims!) all because I get abuse on here for trying to do my best and then again on Skype when I try helping others and offering assistance. That means the sims I currently have in build will get scrapped and the data for them will walk with me.Noel I don't think there is anything is this thread that comes under the title of abuse. There are people who have complained that a product for which they have paid does not work as it should and others who have complained that there is not an adequate process for remedial action when bugs have been reported. Some of those complaints have been couched in strong terms but nothing which could be classified as abuse. If I look back a few years, there is nothing in this thread which I would not have said in similar circumstances to someone working for me, Neither is their anything I would not have expected my boss to say to me. We all understand the conflicting demands that fall on the developers (and testers). However, once you are under the umbrella of a LLC selling things to the public then different rules apply as compared to producing something on a freeware basis and circulating on a warts-and-all basis. If the current way that things are handled is not working to the extent that both developers and customers feel dissatisfied, I would hope that the answer is to try and find a constructive way forward rather than escalating a war of words. I suggested that it might be possible for another developer to help if the original developer cannot afford the time when a problem arises. If that will not work, are there any other positive suggestions that might be followed up? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 21/02/2017 at 17:20 by postal Reason: edit Log in to reply The following users said thank you: MikeW, Temple Meads, RainbowNines |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 21/02/2017 at 17:50 #93262 | |
Steamer
3985 posts 
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I think the vast majority of users- including everyone who's posted in this topic- understand that SimSig is a hobby for everyone, including developers. They also appreciate the time and effort that goes into producing SimSig. Reading the responses, people were objecting to the tone of the post "Sorry, I work for a living", which did read as pretty dismissive towards Lyn. Simply saying "Sorry, I've been busy with work, I'll fix it as soon as I can" would have clarified the situation, and everyone would've understood. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 21/02/2017 at 17:55 by Steamer Reason: . Log in to reply The following users said thank you: MarkC, Richard42, wigley62, Temple Meads |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 21/02/2017 at 18:35 #93268 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
Just to let you all know I am reading this discussion but nothing to say at this point except "we [SimSig] must try harder" and to extend my apologies.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: agilchrist, MarkC, MJD, andyb0607, postal, John 23, Lyn-Greenwood, wigley62, BarryM, norman B, northroad, Richard42, Temple Meads |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 23/03/2017 at 16:31 #94026 | |
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LordSven
29 posts |
Good day all. A delicate subject, I know, but is a timetable available at all for Rugby North at the moment (23rd March 2017? I bought the Rugby multi-pack back on 02nd Feb and have not had a timetable for Rugby North since then. I've thoroughly enjoyed running South and Central but would like to move on down the line! Thank you.
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| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 23/03/2017 at 16:34 #94027 | |
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MarkC
1105 posts |
LordSven in post 94026 said:Good day all. A delicate subject, I know, but is a timetable available at all for Rugby North at the moment (23rd March 2017? I bought the Rugby multi-pack back on 02nd Feb and have not had a timetable for Rugby North since then. I've thoroughly enjoyed running South and Central but would like to move on down the line! Thank you.Have you tried checking for updates on the loader as they should be there. If they are not there, can you say what version of the loader you are using please Last edited: 23/03/2017 at 16:44 by MarkC Reason: edit Log in to reply |
| Rugby North - Invalid Timetable Data detected for 15-Oct-09 WTT 23/03/2017 at 17:24 #94034 | |
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LordSven
29 posts |
Thanks for the rapid response Mark. Just tried the update and uninstalling/reinstalling Rugby North (from the updater) but still have no timetable. The Rugby N sim starts and runs but I have no timetable availabe to select, and there are no timetables in my \Timetables\rugbynorth folder. Loader version is V4.5.13.
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