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| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 26/08/2017 at 19:04 #101263 | |
VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, The new time table has been uploaded for approval to the Peterborough Timetable Section. It will appear when a moderator has approved it. There are extensive notes on General Tab of the Timetable Edit dialogue box - for completeness, these are reproduced below with additional information regarding Sandy DS which I forgot to add before the file was uploaded. I'm indebted to Peter Bennet for his work in creating the original timetable to which I have added a number of features as shown below. The timetable now is very far removed from what Peter envisaged when he did his original work so it has been renumbered in a new series - this is version 1. Please note it WILL NOT chain to adjacent areas. Changes made in this version:- 1) On the original, many ECML trains were found to run excessively early, even though they were taken from a 1977 WTT. In order to rectify this a series of test timetables were used to generate point to point sim timings which are slightly different to the WTT timing used in Peter's version. The data was applied as under: a) Freight trains : The only timings to have been tweaked are the entrance/first timing point and last timing point/exit. In between no alterations have taken place and freight trains can run very early and very late just like they always did in 1977 (I know, I was there!) 2) Peterborough is the hub and station timings there have not been altered. The test data was used to back-time northwards and southwards (and east to west for that matter) from Peterborough meaning a some timings at Huntingdon have been adjusted a few minutes. That, with some minor adjustment to "engineering/pathing" allowances means that trains will generally not run more than a couple of minutes or so early anywhere in their journey. Overnight Class 1 trains may run up to 5 mins early, but this was representative of the time. I have attempted to retain the 3 mins "recovery" time on the approach to Peterborough (shown as pathing) for down trains in order to offset any "waiting platform" issues caused by the transfer of trains from P3 to P4 in this version. This was an exceedingly long and tedious task involving around 400 passenger and ECS trains and took a long while to accomplish. 2) Trip Working With great thanks for a good friend of mine (a driver at Peterborough in the 70s) for supplying anecdotal data regarding trip working in the Peterborough area, I have added a number of trips intended to service all sidings on the sim. As those who were around in that era will know, trip workings were arranged on an "as required" basis and only ever given the barest of timetables, often just a departure time. In the spirit of this, the trip workings included in this timetable have not been timed beyond giving them a departure time meaning the user will have to use a measure of skill in mixing in 35mph and 15mph trains with 100mph trains. All trips are recognisable by the T in their reporting number i.e. 8T16 9T19 propels a brakevan to Huntingdon to pick up a defective wagon from Siding No.1 and it uses both of Huntingdon's Down Sidings. In the schedules the sidings are shown as platforms, No 1 siding is the one immediately behind Platform 3. No.2 is the other. You will need to use the hand points to get 8T16 into Sandy DS and leave them reverse while the train is in the yard. When the train is ready to leave the driver will ask for your authority to move. Only give this when you have set the points manually for the train to run up to the LOS L8. The train will reverse automatically. Reset the points and a route can then be set over the DSL. There are a number of Class 9 trip trains in this timetable - for those that may not be aware, Class 9 trains ran at 25 mph (or 15mph if a Class 08 was used), so be very careful what you do with them. 9T18 at 15mph to Huntingdon propelling a brakevan may be particularly troublesome but there are paths for them, you just have to use your skill to find them. You will also have to be patient! For those who use ARS, all of these un-timed trips MUST run in non-ARS mode. ARS does not appear to like a lack of timings and starts to behave oddly at locations that are in the trips timetable but a very long way away! 3) One flyash train detaches a defective wagon into the "Peterborough Spur" and then returns to reform its train. Due to a sim limitation it cannot return directly to its train (sub-route locked in opposite direction) so the returning train has to be routed via Crescent Spur, North DS and thence back onto the train. A trip working will arrive later from Crescent and remove the defective wagon to Crescent Sidings. 4) A few cosmetic changes - all relief trains and associated empty stock movements have been renumbered into the xGxx for trains running wholly within the ER and xZxx for inter-regional trains. Additionally anecdotal information on stock formation on both passenger and freight trains has been included. My and my correspondent's memory supplied some, with video and other on-line sources supplying more. 5) Following some comments made to me after the release of the first revision of Peter's work Version 4.1, P4 has again become the platform of choice for northbound ECML trains. It all fits, but platforming on the 4/5 side can be very tight and care must be exercised in ensuring all trains are platformed in the correct order. This is especially true between 1700 and 2100 when I would strongly advise the user to manually operate the area from Holme to Werrington. If used, ARS will make some very odd preferences and decisions and you will end up in a very big mess. 6) All "named" trains are bonus trains. 7) Be aware that certain of the Huntingdon turn-rounds are formed of 4 cars so they will be routed via the UFL to Huntingdon South to crossover or will be routed as normal via the USL and will need P344 signal to be cleared for the movement. I hope those who like vintage timetables will enjoy this one. I believe I have shaken most of the errors and bugs out of this one, but if you find any, please let me know via this thread. Thank you Regards Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 27/08/2017 at 08:39 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: norman B, vloris, agincourt13, HST125Scorton |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 26/08/2017 at 20:54 #101267 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
JamesN in post 101208 said:VInce in post 101196 said:I've got to admit to being one of those people. I've been following this thread for some time and am very much looking forward to this sim being released.Hi all,No! I feel you should definitely release it - it does sound very intriguing to see and I can tell from your many posts the amount of work you've put in. Peterborough is one of my favourite sims, York and Kings Cross being two others and I'm shortly going to purchase Tyneside IECC. I suppose the reason that I like these sims so much is because I travel the route quite often as I visit Doncaster, Newcastle and Edinburgh where friends and family live. I will also be purchasing the Edinburgh sim in the not too distant future and hope to be able to 'fill the gap' at some point to complete the set if a version of Doncaster is ever made available. And before anybody says anything, I've read all about the 'conflict of interest' situation! We can all live in hope. So Vince, you have my vote of thanks. Keep up the good work - if you have the time that is. Bugsy Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 29/08/2017 at 17:05 #101344 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Thank you to all of those who have downloaded this - hope you are enjoying it. After a couple more run-throughs under extreme disruption conditions I am aware that there are a couple of rules missing and also a couple of light engine movements between Peterborough Shed and Crescent sidings missing. None of these are show stoppers and you probably would not notice them under "normal" conditions. Everything still runs. However I will issue an update in the next week or so, correcting those and also adjusting dwell times. Class 1 trains formed of loco hauled stock will now have a default minimum station time of 2 minutes, which applies even when the train is late, which is not the case currently. When trains are late currently, a 30-second station time is the default which is not enough for a Class 1 loco-hauled train to perform its station duties. Class 1/2 DMU trains will have a custom half-minute minimum station time. Some overnight services which convey parcels and mail as well as conveying passenger vehicles have quite extended dwell times to account for loading and unloading. These trains will have a custom dwell time so as they stay in the platform for at least half of the time they would do if they were on-time. Through testing it has been discovered that, when trains are late and booked to take train-crew relief they will only stop for 30 seconds irrespective of any figure entered into the Crew Change dwell time box. To rectify this all trains that take train crew relief will have a "Location" dwell time of 2 mins. This seems to work in most cases - occasionally when the train is on-time and the train crew are slightly late the two minutes is added on and a small delay is incurred. I don't know why, but keep a keen eye of the F2 screen and that will help you see when trains will leave. I should have something out by Sunday. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 29/08/2017 at 17:20 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 29/08/2017 at 19:59 #101352 | |
postal
5263 posts |
VInce in post 101344 said:Some overnight services which convey parcels and mail as well as conveying passenger vehicles have quite extended dwell times to account for loading and unloading. These trains will have a custom dwell time so as they stay in the platform for at least half of the time they would do if they were on-time.I think you are perhaps being a bit optimistic in regard to the overnight mail trains. By the time I was involved from the Royal Mail side of the house (1990 until about 1998) most RM Station Managers were very zealous in guarding their station dwell times whether the train was early, on time or late. As Royal Mail has a long tradition of resistance to change, it is unlikely that this was a dramatic new policy introduced between 1977 and 1990. Usually this was built on the back of the fact that the management knew roughly how much mail was to be loaded or unloaded and then staffed accordingly within the dwell time. Unless the station manager could magic some extra staff (e.g. from the Mail Centre which used to be on Bourges Boulevard although that may be post-1977) he would need all of the time to carry out the loading and unloading. With some of the trains (particularly the NE Down TPO) it was a mad panic to get everything done within the dwell time and I suspect that it was very rare that any cut in the dwell time would have been permitted from the Royal Mail side. Another thing to consider is that the managers on the TPOs were very averse to leaving anywhere early while they had mail to sort for the next stop as they were expected to have the mail at the door ready to unload at that stop (even if they got there early). As the Up TPO put mail out at Hitchin the chances of leaving Peterborough early with most of the train managers was nil. That is one where senior management could have stepped in but how many senior managers are there about in the wee small hours! That would mean that most days both the NE Up and Down TPOs would not leave Peterborough until due time no matter how early they arrived. The earlier trains had a bit more leeway and the Royal Mail staff might have indicated that they were ready to release the train before due time but I don't think a blanket 50% cut in the dwell time of all mail trains would reflect what the actual situation on the ground was. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 29/08/2017 at 22:01 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: norman B, VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 29/08/2017 at 20:49 #101355 | |
norman B
111 posts |
Having worked at Peterborough for a short time in the early seventies,I can but agree with postals post re Royal Mail dwell times. If the TPO arrived early which was usually the up one the departure was always on time whilst the down train was usually running in almost to time. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 30/08/2017 at 00:41 #101361 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi, Thank you, that's excellent. Just the sort of information I wanted. I presume here by the NE TPO we are talking about 1N42 2355 Kings Cross - Newcastle (Pbro 0121/0128) and 1A40 2030 Newcastle - Kings Cross (Pbro 0123/35). The problem I have is on the original timetable the trains were not identified by type so it was a little difficult to distinguish passenger trains from mail/parcel/passenger trains. Can you identify any of the other trains for me, particularly which were the TPOs? I know its a very long time ago now but anything you could remember would be a big help in improving the quality of the timetable. A lot of parcel/mail trains ran to and from the yard so I presume loading/unloading was done there too - is that right? In any event I'll give them the full allowance back in the overnights. I was at Derby in the period in question and well remember 1E38 1938 Bristol - Newcastle down North East TPO and its return 1V50 (or was it 1V46?) and I agree completely that the dwell times were jealously guarded. In 1984 while I was working on the back desk in Derby PSB Derby, became a mail hub and between 1930 and about 0300 it was a very busy place indeed. I can still remember the shunts required, the attachments and detachments and the trouble we would get into if we delayed anything. Those trains that carried Parcels and Mail were a little less stringently controlled and there was some leeway with them but not, as you say, the TPOs. I was also very well acquainted with 1M58 and 1E74 which combined on the outward and split on the return at Derby. 1M77 was the Lincoln - Derby portion which joined with 1M58 and 1E88 was formed off 1E74 at Derby on the return. I have a vague recollection that down and up NE TPO were restricted to 80mph (or was it 70?) Can you recollect whether some speed limit applied to TPO workings for the comfort of the on-board staff? Again on the original timetable 1N42 and 1A40 both have a comment that simply says 70mph which indicates that this was the case. Thank you again - very useful. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 30/08/2017 at 01:11 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 30/08/2017 at 01:43 #101362 | |
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postal
5263 posts |
Vince We are talking different eras, because by the time I got involved Royal Mail had agreed to pay additional extra money on the contract to upgrade the Mails and Postals to Class 1 trains. There were only a couple of Class 3's by then. The decision had also been made (late 80s I think) to move all of the Parcelforce traffic onto rubber wheels rather than using rail. I'm not sure when things changed, but certainly in the 1960s a lot of the TPOs may well have been on services with passenger accommodation as well. In those days, certainly the Mid-North/Mid-South TPOs ran TTd as passenger services between Newcastle and Bristol and the York - Shrewsbury TPO similarly. IIRC in the 1970s/1980s there was a lot of parcels traffic from the Yard from one of the catalogue houses (can't remember which now) who had a depot on the West side of the line, opposite the Yard and a conveyor belt crossing the main line on a bridge to the yard (or was the conveyor to the long gone Parcelforce depot on the site now occupied by Toys'R'Us?). That would all be loading rather than unloading. As far as the Royal Mail traffic was concerned again you'll have to extrapolate the thinking backwards but by 1990 there were mail services from Norwich and was it Basildon (what is now called junk mail regarding credit card and insurance) which spent time dropping vans at Peterborough which went into the Nene and then tacked onto the back of other trains on the ECML or across towards Leicester. If only I'd kept the things like MLIs (later called TSGs) from those days rather than binning them each TT change! By 1990 the Down TPO was 22:55 off the Cross (can''t remember the reporting number) while 1A40 was the Up TPO. (irrelevant fact - in 1990 there was 1A40 Newcastle - Cross TPO and 1A41 Leeds - Cross which ran non-stop from Doncaster: there was a shunt at Doncaster to move 1 van of fast traffic for the Cross from 1A40 to 1A41 another shunt to move 1 van from 1A41 to 1A40 for the Leeds traffic to the linesides). Again IIRC the TPOs were 100mph rated stock but ran limited to 80mph in normal circumstances for the comfort of the staff. If a TPO was late the driver would run at best speed but would get a call from the TPO manager (mobile phones were just coming in) if the riding got a bit uncomfortable. Not necessarily directly relevant but hope it give a bit of background. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 30/08/2017 at 01:52 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 30/08/2017 at 02:23 #101363 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi, Thanks again - I'll as you say, extrapolate backwards. Regards, Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 30/08/2017 at 08:35 #101364 | |
Dick
387 posts |
postal in post 101362 said:Catalogue house was Freemans and I think that was where the conveyor went to rather than Parcelforce. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 30/08/2017 at 09:30 #101365 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
VInce in post 101344 said:Hi all,Again, sounds pretty authentic to me - rare for crews to be absolutely at the stop mark as a train ran in, and always information to impart for the handover (which could become a bit of a natter unless the TCS or a Traction Inspector happened to be around to move things on a bit). Some crews would be quicker than others, of course (you did say it was occasional Vince?) and some would be only too happy if a minute dropped (hence unrecorded) on the changeover meant they had to be looped further along (nice bit of overtime, because if it happened once it was likely to happen again). Certain depots were known for that kind of working (no names, but cast your mind eastward...) All good fun (it says here) for the bobby. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 02/09/2017 at 10:23 #101441 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, I'm working on a follow up to this which should be available in a week or two. 1) I ran the timetable under very disrupted conditions and found a couple of light engine movements between Peterborough Shed and Crescent missing (to work and after working trains). 2) There were a couple of rules missing. Neither of these were show stoppers and it still all worked but for completeness I will sort them out. I've also found a couple of conflicts at New England (trains booked through the junction at the same time) and one on the Crescent Spur. These will sorted too. Additionally I will shortly be the beneficiary of a significant number of heritage WTTs one of which is "Kings Cross - Ayton 1976-77". Whilst this is 12 months before the date of the timetable, usually in this era, very little changed from year to year so I'm hoping to glean some useful information on timing loads which will give me a pointer towards what the stock formations were expected to be. I should also clear up the debate on which of the overnights were postals, news, passenger or a combination of the three. I'll let you know on here when its ready - meanwhile I hope you are enjoying Version 1 Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 02/09/2017 at 10:55 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 02/09/2017 at 17:25 #101450 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
deleted
I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 02/09/2017 at 17:25 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 02/09/2017 at 17:26 #101451 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
delete
I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 02/09/2017 at 20:08 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 02/09/2017 at 17:26 #101452 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
kbarber in post 101365 said:VInce in post 101344 said:Hi all,Hi all,Again, sounds pretty authentic to me - rare for crews to be absolutely at the stop mark as a train ran in, and always information to impart for the handover (which could become a bit of a natter unless the TCS or a Traction Inspector happened to be around to move things on a bit). Some crews would be quicker than others, of course (you did say it was occasional Vince?) and some would be only too happy if a minute dropped (hence unrecorded) on the changeover meant they had to be looped further along (nice bit of overtime, because if it happened once it was likely to happen again). Certain depots were known for that kind of working (no names, but cast your mind eastward...) All good fun (it says here) for the bobby. I used to work firstly in Nottingham Control on the Derby Relief desk in the 70s and 80s and followed that with a period in Derby PSB on the back desk. Part of the back desk job was sending out crews from the train-crew mess room or, if Derby men were involved, the 4-shed mess room. At Derby, relief points were in the station, DY436 on the goods line at LNW Jcn or DY449 on the goods line at the back of the station. We'd occasionally get traincrew who didn't know where DY436 was and we'd try to bring the train to DY458 on the down goods at Derby Station then the incoming crew would say they didn't know past DY436 and it was a case of never the twain shall meet. Holbeck men who relieved 4E88 and 4E76 liners were the most difficult to accommodate in this respect. Both trains were too long to be accommodated on the GL at Sunnyhill and also stood foul in the station so it was a difficult job to know what to do with them A lot of them played the one-arm bandit, which gave "unlimited" prizes and you could always bet that if a freight train was hanging around after the crew had been sent out to relieve it, it was generally because they were on a "winning streak"!. In the very early seventies too, before the various alcohol/drugs policies were in effect, we could often find traincrew in the Railway Institute across the road from the station and would send them out from there. Earlier on, when I started my career in the erstwhile Cambridge Control trains actually got relieved in the bar of the Station Hotel, the incoming driver and guard screwing the train down on the through goods and then meeting their relief in the snug! People who have been brought up in the modern way would never have believed what used to happen!. No disrespect intended but mostly it was ER men who were the worst offenders, York, Tinsley or Masborough men were notoriously slow to react and it was often a case of one step forward and two back en-route to the train. Going the other way Saltley men weren't nick-named Seagulls for nothing. Not only did most of them have an all-England road-card (even if they had only been there once on their holidays) they were remarkably quick to relieve their trains and often they were off towards home seemingly before they'd even put the phone down. Bescot and Gloucester men were similar whilst the odd Bristol driver we got were the only ones who wanted a call to relieve passenger trains. They never worked freight trains to us but if a passenger train was over time waiting train-crew they'd always try to say they'd never had a call! Great times - I loved the whole of my operational career right up to when I retired in 2005 as an Operations Manager/Operations Safety Manager/Operational Standards Manager (take your pick, I did all three at the same time) but the best time was the period I spent in Nottingham Control and Derby PSB where the job got done, done well and the camaraderie was top-notch! Regards, Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 03/09/2017 at 09:27 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, Phil-jmw |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 03/09/2017 at 09:21 #101479 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
VInce in post 101452 said:Hi all, It was indeed ER men I had in mind, but not that far north. M***h men were well known for being able to spin things out just enough to have to be looped... VInce in post 101452 said: [quote=kbarber;post=101365][quote=VInce;post=101344] <snip> And of course when Neil Armstrong stepped on to the surface of the Moon, there was a Ripple Lane crew waiting to relieve him :-) Last edited: 03/09/2017 at 09:21 by kbarber Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 03/09/2017 at 18:36 #101504 | |
bossman
93 posts |
With a teaspoon instead of a master key...
cliff cook Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 12/10/2017 at 19:57 #102226 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Well, I did say this would be ready today but life has got in the way and I'm well behind with the testing of this six-day timetable. Another week or two and it should be ready. From the last time I posted I've changed a lot - including daily variations there's now 958 trains with 621 rules. I experimented with defensive driving rules but had to remove it as, despite much experimentation all stopping trains approaching Peterborough from the north were losing time due to having to pass two yellow signals (474 & 468) on approach control and thus were dropping to 15mph twice! Its a shame because in all other ways it worked very well. I've had to deviate from the WTT once, with an EDMU that is supposed to leave Peterborough at 0750 right behind 1A48. It arrives at Huntington P2 at 0811, reverses and runs to Huntingdon North, reverses again and runs to P3 and reverses again! All that at its supposed to depart at 0820! I reduced the reversal time to 2 mins and still couldn't achieve an RT return on a test timetable where this was the only train! So I've had to shuffle the DMU workings around and it now leaves at 0725 in a much better path and with time to spare at Huntingdon. It would be achievable if there was a main aspect at the north end of P2 and the train started from there but that is not the case so the signalling may have been different here in 1977. There are no sidings to yard ECS moves in the 1977 WTT from which this timetable has been extracted, so you have to use your imagination a bit. In order to prevent bottlenecks at the Yard exits, the ECS trains for the morning starts are now platformed much earlier. All loco-hauled passenger trains have their correct formations after Postal pointed me in the direction of an on-line repository of carriage workings. I've expanded the use of the Choices and Decisions system so that it now makes a choice of a) Day of the week b) Traction for certain passenger trains (i.e. all trains scheduled for Class 55 haulage now have a chance of a Class 47 turning up occasionally) c) Traction on Birmingham - Norwich and vv services. !977 was, I believe, the first year that loco-hauled trains replaced Etches Park based Class 120 DMUs on the Birmingham - Norwich service. (I was a DMU controller for the EP fleet in 1977 - good memories!) There were DMU substitutions on a regular basis and the timetable provides that d) Exits for Parcels and ECS trains which will now either leave via the Yard Departure Line (YD) or the Shunt Line (SL) Sorry for the delay... Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 12/10/2017 at 20:29 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: derbybest, BarryM, postal, bossman, Airvan00 |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 13/10/2017 at 09:51 #102237 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
VInce in post 102226 said:I've had to deviate from the WTT once, with an EDMU that is supposed to leave Peterborough at 0750 right behind 1A48. It arrives at Huntington P2 at 0811, reverses and runs to Huntingdon North, reverses again and runs to P3 and reverses again! All that at its supposed to depart at 0820!Would it be expected that a secondman/guard/shunter would handsignal/radio/etc. the driver backwards from P2, saving him all the walking? I don't know whether this was typical in 1977. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 13/10/2017 at 10:18 #102239 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
I would have thought that all the saints in the sequence would be completed with the guard in the back cab using buzzer control should be easy to do 3 moves in under 9 minutes. I personally would prefer the 0750 prototypicial path as opposed to the make life easier 0725 path. After all that's how the job was booked to be done. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 13/10/2017 at 10:19 by Meld Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: norman B, VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 13/10/2017 at 21:07 #102241 | |
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norman B
111 posts |
The moves at that time would have had the guard using the buzzer in the back cab and that sort of practice was still happening around the system in the late 80s and early 90s. Guards school at Waterloo in 1988 was still advising guards that they could still be required to do this in order to facilitate moves in busy places or when timings would be extended. Farnham to Farnham sheds was an example off the top of my head.Train would arrive from Alton into the station ,propelling back into the sheds with the guard in the back cab using the buzzer as required.I did this with a guards inspector on board at 2339 hrs one Friday evening!!! Good times had by all! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 14/10/2017 at 00:05 #102242 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Yes, I do accept what you both say. Where I was in 1977, it was not common practice to use buzzer control although the bell (buzzer) codes were always on a plate in both the driver's cabs and the guard's brake on Class 114 and 120 DMUs. In fact it was frowned on to drive from the "wrong cab" although it was a frequent occurrence. The WTT would suggest that the reversal here was done as you suggest and was not against the rules. In terms of this timetable its a bigger issue than you would imagine. It was very difficult and time consuming job to path the unit shunts P3 to P2/1 at Huntingdon with 2 minute reversals. Using 60 seconds makes it so much easier. So if that's the consensus then I'll de-construct things and use a 60 second reversal - I admit to being unsure of what time to use for a reversal so I erred on the side of what I was used to. It will delay the release for a short while but I'll do my best to get it right. Thanks for the comments, Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 14/10/2017 at 02:39 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 14/10/2017 at 09:16 #102243 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
With the guard in the back cab you could probably pin it down to a 10 sec reversal during the shunt. But you would need to allow for tipping out and the guard walking from his compartment to the back end. (Or the driver changing ends... depends which way the shunt was driven from the back end. If it was a single Cravens or Metro-Cammell set - much used on the GN in those days - I'd half-expect the guard to walk through and be ready to go the moment they came to a stand, after all every second saved increased the likelihood of being able to tap up the platform staff for a can of boiling water.) So I guess a very short reversal time and rules to hold back the start of the shunting when the train comes to a stand. Remember this was the GN and they didn't hang about on that road... in the old days there was apparently an unofficial handsignal at Crescent Junction, the signalbox broom held out of the window indicating to the driver of an up freight that he was on a tight margin ahead of a fast - and the bobby knew the driver would do the necessary.
Last edited: 14/10/2017 at 09:17 by kbarber Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 14/10/2017 at 10:55 #102244 | |
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norman B
111 posts |
Over the years when I was involved with such moves,I would always be in position in the non driving cab as soon as we had emptied the passengers or in the case of ECS moves ,on arrival.We could move off as soon as the signals allowed. It was surprising how we could do the moves if it led to getting a brew in!!! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 15/10/2017 at 13:24 #102281 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Thanks to everyone for their contributions to the DMU reversal topic, especially to Meld who suggested the option which I've now used. Just to say that I've spent most of Saturday and this Sunday morning experimenting and testing the Huntingdon turn rounds and found that:- 1) All Huntingdon up/down and vv turn-rounds are best as discrete services with a special "train type" and thus special dwell times. 2) Station forward on the northbound originating Class 2 service to remain at 2 mins so as the driver changes ends in the platform 3) Huntingdon North and South reversals work best (in this timetable) at 45 seconds using the custom location dwell time box, and I have timed and pathed them thus using the "display seconds in the timetable" option. I'm very grateful for the help - this has been a very long project for me (every day for over three months) and assistance like this is invaluable. I'm testing each day's timetable with a complete run through twice looking for errors and conflicts so it will be perhaps another couple of weeks before it sees the light of day. On another topic, further research has revealed that Little Barford PS was supplied with coal from the North-Eastern coalfield in minfits (35T open wagons - MCV in TOPS parlance) usually via Whitemoor but on a Saturday direct from Tyne Yard for Mondays train. Running a Class 8 freight on Saturday evening would have been very unusual and I'd always wondered what traffic 8B18SO 1350 Tees Yard (via Tyne Yard) - Peterborough Yard conveyed - now I know. The joint line closed early on Saturdays and there were paths available on Saturday evening via the ECML. I've synchronised all on the these workings which are are conditional on the supplying train running from Whitemoor. Mondays' Little Barford train always runs supplied direct from Tyne on Saturdays. Regards, Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 15/10/2017 at 13:53 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |