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| Biggleswade GF - bug? 08/10/2017 at 11:47 #102097 | |
VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, In testing the new 1977 timetable the following occurs:- 2B66 running along the down SL and stops in P4 at Biggleswade. 9T17 calls up ready at Biggleswade B, the frame releases while 2B66 is stopped in the platform, signal BGB3 out of the sidings clears with T4101 still occupied by 2B66 in the platform and 9T17 leaves into an occupied section, the description over-writing 2B66 in K769 berth. It is repeatable. It also occurs if T4101 is manually shown to be occupied (using the F11 dialogue box) - Biggleswade B frame releases and BGB3 signal clears onto T4101 occupied. Attached is a save of the problem which occurs almost immediately - it has to be done quickly before 2B66 leaves the platform. I presume its an unintended consequence of trains able to be admitted at Biggleswade B frame end of the sidings. Vince Post has attachments. Log in to view them. I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 08/10/2017 at 12:11 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 08/10/2017 at 12:29 #102099 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
It's possible that the 'signal' is just representing a hand signal given to drivers by the ground frame operator. In which case, there would obviously be no interlocking between someone's hand and the track circuit. Even if there was a signal there, it's quite possible that the shunt signal would clear onto an occupied line.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 08/10/2017 at 12:47 #102101 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Steamer in post 102099 said:It's possible that the 'signal' is just representing a hand signal given to drivers by the ground frame operator. In which case, there would obviously be no interlocking between someone's hand and the track circuit. Even if there was a signal there, it's quite possible that the shunt signal would clear onto an occupied line.Steamer, Well there's nothing in the Wiki about there being a handsignalman there. BGB3 signal only appears when the frame is released and in my PSB experience, the only GPS signals which clear into occupied sections are those that are required for normal station working i.e attaching and detaching of engines and vehicles which, as far as I'm aware has never occurred in the PSB era at Biggleswade. I would not have expected the frame to release with T4101 occupied in the first instance and I would not have expected BGB3 to clear into an occupied section. If what occurs is the intended operation then the Wiki should show some "Box Instructions" to the effect that Biggleswade GF "B" should not be released with a train in P4. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 08/10/2017 at 12:51 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 08/10/2017 at 13:22 #102103 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
If it appears when the GF is open and goes when closed then it's not a real signal but a virtual signal representing a hand signal. There's not been any formal guideline on how these should be done so it does vary from Sim to Sim. If it's not in the manual that's probably an oversight rather than an indication that it's not that. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 08/10/2017 at 18:03 #102105 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Peter Bennet in post 102103 said:If it appears when the GF is open and goes when closed then it's not a real signal but a virtual signal representing a hand signal. There's not been any formal guideline on how these should be done so it does vary from Sim to Sim. If it's not in the manual that's probably an oversight rather than an indication that it's not that.Peter thank you. If it is a handsignal then (in the real world anyway) the handsignalman/guard should ask for the signaller's permission before the frame is released. All the sim says is "9T17 has entered at Biggleswade B". If you use the handpoints at Sandy for a train to be admitted, then on return, with the hand-points reversed, the signallers permission is asked for as there is no signal for the movement. A similar arrangement ought to exist for Biggleswade B, but I suspect that its unlikely to be changed due to its infrequent use, so if one of the developers could put a suitable note in the wiki it would help. As it is, when I release the timetable, I'll put a note to the same effect. I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 08/10/2017 at 18:20 #102106 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
VInce in post 102105 said:A similar arrangement ought to exist for Biggleswade B, but I suspect that its unlikely to be changed due to its infrequent use, so if one of the developers could put a suitable note in the wiki it would help.Anyone may edit the Wiki, you don't need to be a developer. However, I've added a note at the start of the ground frames section of the Peterborough manual warning about handsignals. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 08/10/2017 at 18:20 by Steamer Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 09/10/2017 at 05:30 #102115 | |
clive
2789 posts |
Steamer in post 102099 said:It's possible that the 'signal' is just representing a hand signal given to drivers by the ground frame operator. In which case, there would obviously be no interlocking between someone's hand and the track circuit.This is the case. According to the data I have, there are no ground signals for trains leaving the yard, just K236 for those entering. Perhaps Peter can check for me. Steamer in post 102099 said: Indeed. Signals operated by a ground frame are unlikely to have significant interlocking; if they did, they'd be operated by the main box. Last edited: 09/10/2017 at 05:36 by clive Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 09/10/2017 at 05:36 #102116 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
VInce in post 102101 said:There doesn't need to be. If it should be anywhere, it should be in the general material about ground frames, not in a sim manual. VInce in post 102101 said: That's arguable. If you don't allow it, there's no way to do a loco change or remove a cripple. It might not be a common move, but I see no reason to add the extra circuitry to forbid it. Ground frames are designed to be operated by people standing there who can see what's going on, after all. VInce in post 102101 said: Same comment. VInce in post 102101 said: Why not? If a joining move is needed, that's exactly what would happen. It sounds as if you've just been caught out by something unexpected, rather than anything actually being wrong. Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 09/10/2017 at 05:41 #102117 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
VInce in post 102105 said:In most sims that's taken as being implicit by you releasing the frame. In fact, I don't recall seeing a sim that has any kind of interaction when a frame is needed; the signaller gives the release and then the frame release lever is pulled. VInce in post 102105 said: That's a core code thing to prevent trains wandering off over pointwork. VInce in post 102105 said: I'm not going to change it because I don't see a need. There's a (fake) signal there to stop trains moving on to the main line without authority. Nothing more is necessary IMAO. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 09/10/2017 at 10:12 #102120 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
[/quote] It sounds as if you've just been caught out by something unexpected, rather than anything actually being wrong.[/quote] Clive, Yes I was caught out - I'm not denying that and I accept most of the points you make. I was rushing, with the sim running at 6:1 so as I could complete the timetable check and didn't take sufficient care. At the crux of it though is the fact that the frame releases with T4101 occupied which is something outside of my experience. I still don't think that should happen and we'll have to agree to disagree about that. I was unaware of the "virtual signal" thing, and yes, it is shown in the wiki under "lever frames". I think we need some consistency though. For instance, on the same sim, when a train is ready at Little Barford PS, it states that the points are set wrong. That doesn't happen at Biggleswade. Sorry for getting it wrong. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 09/10/2017 at 11:41 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 09/10/2017 at 12:58 #102125 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
VInce in post 102120 said:Hmm, that does sound like an inconsistency. Can you explain exactly what you're doing to trigger that message? I didn't get it when I tried. Log in to reply |
| Biggleswade GF - bug? 09/10/2017 at 14:54 #102128 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
clive in post 102125 said:VInce in post 102120 said:I think this is "if you're in a hole, stop digging" territory.Hmm, that does sound like an inconsistency. Can you explain exactly what you're doing to trigger that message? I didn't get it when I tried. Actually, its not an inconsistency - both Biggleswade and Little Barford do it. Ignore the entry message and wait 3 minutes after they have entered - then they both call up and say "the points are set wrong". Sorry. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |