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Never-ending crew change? 27/11/2017 at 20:54 #103421 | |
Andy174
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Hi, same problem here. How do I make a location dwell time change? Thanks Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 27/11/2017 at 22:08 #103425 | |
Albert
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Set this dwell time to zero:![]() Then double-click the Oxford location, and set this one to two minutes (or whatever time was in the red box): ![]() If you want me to do an automated edit of all crew changes, I can do that if you point me to your TT. For the Winter 2016 one, I attached a fixed version on the last post on the previous page. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. AJP in games Last edited: 27/11/2017 at 22:10 by Albert Reason: images resized Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 28/11/2017 at 19:26 #103450 | |
Andy174
![]() 94 posts |
Thanks Albert. I was using the 1978TT.
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Never-ending crew change? 28/11/2017 at 23:07 #103456 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
The solution is not to edit the timetables, but to wait for a core code fix. #18602 applies. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 00:35 #103460 | |
VInce
![]() 579 posts |
headshot119 in post 103456 said:The solution is not to edit the timetables, but to wait for a core code fix.That's quite true - but how long do we wait? I don't think I was alone in expecting a fix at the last loader update - but Geoff has said its a major issue and needs a lot of work and there is no estimate of when a fix will be available. We know there's an issue - we know there's a work-around so what's the harm in editing the timetable so it actually works? None - as far as I can see. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 00:43 #103461 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
How many timetables are there that use crew change feature? You’ll need to do this work around on all of them, then release them all, then undo it all when the core code is updated. Then you end up with version control issues if people edit released timetables and post them on the forum, then the original writer updates it and uses the same version number, then the updater won’t update things correctly. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 29/11/2017 at 00:46 by headshot119 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 02:28 #103462 | |
VInce
![]() 579 posts |
I don't basically disagree but if the problem goes on and on uncorrected then work arounds will be found and people will us them. So just what are the timetable writers supposed to do? Its no good producing timetables using the present crew change system, since it doesn't work properly as evidenced by this whole thread. Do we just abandon writing and releasing timetables until the matter is fixed which may be this week, next week next year or whenever - we don't know? I don't think that would be good for Simsig, do you? ....or do we continue to write timetables using a work around that works. Perhaps the poor relations that are the timetable writers could have some guidance please on what we should be doing rather than criticise us for making it work. Vince. I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 02:42 #103463 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
VInce in post 103462 said:I don't basically disagree but if the problem goes on and on uncorrected then work arounds will be found and people will us them.I don't mean to criticise, I work very closely with the timetable writers for my simulations, and I don't think either of them consider them poor relations! My point is creating extra work doing, then undoing, and issues with version control is not worth it in the long run. From what I can tell the feature was broken between 4.6.4 and 4.6.5, given that I'd expect it can be sorted ahead of the other changes to crew changes. Sometimes it's best to wait a couple of weeks and see if a fix is forthcoming. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 03:05 #103466 | |
VInce
![]() 579 posts |
headshot119 in post 103463 said:VInce in post 103462 said:I don't agree. It didn't work properly in 4.6.4 - we could never get it to work if trains were early or late and if they were on time we couldn't get them to leave on time. I used it when Lyn Greenwood and I first updated Peter's 1977 Peterborough Friday timetable and we spent weeks and weeks testing various scenarios trying to make it work. Somewhere in the archives there are threads we put out at the time.I don't basically disagree but if the problem goes on and on uncorrected then work arounds will be found and people will us them.I don't mean to criticise, I work very closely with the timetable writers for my simulations, and I don't think either of them consider them poor relations! Still, we've thrashed this one to death - again. I certainly won't be doing any more work on the two timetables I'm dealing with at the moment and whether I can raise the enthusiasm to finish them will depend on how long it takes for this issue to be fixed. I won't be holding my breath. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 29/11/2017 at 03:09 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 03:13 #103467 | |
kaiwhara
![]() 587 posts |
VInce in post 103466 said:I don't agree. it didn't work properly in 4.6.4 - we could never get it to work if trains were early or late and if they were on time we couldn't get them to leave on time. I used it when Lyn Greenwood and I first updated Peter's 1977 Peterborough Friday timetable and we spent weeks and weeks testing various scenarios trying to make it work. Somewhere in the archives there are threads we put out at the time.Vince I'm not sure why there is a need for negativity, but I can confirm that crew changes did indeed work in 4.6.4, as several timetables I have been writing for as yet unreleased sims have these crew changes, and they actually worked during testing up to the release of 4.6.5! There is indeed an issue, it has been reported and tagged as requiring immediate resolution (immediate being the highest category in Mantis), the root cause is being investigated and rectified, and not withstanding this, a simulation in testing at the moment with my timetable in it has a multitude of crew changes in it so it has to be fixed before that simulation can be released anyway! My advice, wait for a fix, and stop wasting energy by banging this out on the forum. A fix will be forthcoming. I need it just as much as you do, and I need it for about 5 simulations!! Andrew. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Last edited: 29/11/2017 at 03:19 by kaiwhara Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 04:01 #103468 | |
Meld
![]() 1108 posts ![]() |
As Karl said previously version control is crucial for the system to work correctly, If version control is on a timetable, every time you save it the version number will increase by 0.0.1, therefore you will be missing out on subsequent new releases as the loader will say you have a higher version number than the one being released. We do try to keep on top of issues with timetables with regular updates as required, however in this case as timetable writers, it is a little beyond our control If you do want to edit one of the default timetables please save it under a different name Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 08:42 #103471 | |
VInce
![]() 579 posts |
Karl, Yes I agree about version control and that is why I have not edited any default timetables. I don't write or update default timetables and I suspect I never will. I offered a work-around - that's all - nothing else. its up to the user to decide if they want to use it. I have used this work around on the timetables I have uploaded to the user submitted files areas and unless location dwell time is about to be removed or altered it will not break anything when this issue is finally rectified. If they want to edit their own timetables then as far as I'm concerned that's fine if they are for their own use. It didn't work properly in 4.6.4 or we wouldn't have spent weeks trying to get trains to leave on time. If it did, what was fixed here? 0017146: [Common] Crew Change Dwell (GeoffMayo) - resolved. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 29/11/2017 at 14:36 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 11:25 #103473 | |
Albert
![]() 1315 posts |
Andy174 in post 103450 said:Thanks Albert. I was using the 1978TT.Given it takes some time to fix the issue - and so far I haven't found a 4.6.4 loader for download - I have made a temporary fix to the timetable which I attach here with permission of the TT's author. It's good to know this is going to be fixed in core code, but since it takes a while I also think it would be nice to have a few working TT's to play Oxford meanwhile. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. AJP in games Log in to reply The following users said thank you: JamesN, Andy174 |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 13:57 #103474 | |
whatlep
![]() 377 posts |
Albert has kindly brought this problem re Oxford timetables to my attention as author of the Oxford 1978 timetable. I will update the "official" version and resubmit to SimSig as V1.2. I'll also do the required patching to the 1983 & 1986 timetables. Good co-operative effort all round IMHO. Peter Whatley Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 14:37 #103477 | |
postal
![]() 5216 posts ![]() |
Albert in post 103473 said:Andy174 in post 103450 said:AlbertThanks Albert. I was using the 1978TT.Given it takes some time to fix the issue - and so far I haven't found a 4.6.4 loader for download - I have made a temporary fix to the timetable which I attach here with permission of the TT's author. v4.6.5 should automatically install when you run the update module (v4.6.4 has already been overtaken by events). Is this your problem? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 29/11/2017 at 14:38 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 16:42 #103484 | |
Albert
![]() 1315 posts |
I don't have an issue updating - I mean, there is not an easy way to downgrade to the working 4.6.4 after the upgrade succeeded, unless anyone here still has its .exe file. I have an .exe of V4.6.3 but it is too old for the latest Oxford sim version.
AJP in games Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 17:14 #103486 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
I am working on this issue - in fact started last night. So please just give me a few days to work out what happened, to fix it, and get it tested before release.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: JamesN |
Never-ending crew change? 29/11/2017 at 22:44 #103500 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
GeoffM in post 103486 said:I am working on this issue - in fact started last night. So please just give me a few days to work out what happened, to fix it, and get it tested before release.Progress report: Some problems identified and fixed. More to do. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Gwasanaethau, whatlep, VInce, KymriskaDraken, Lyn-Greenwood, 58050 |
Never-ending crew change? 01/12/2017 at 01:16 #103534 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
In a slightly unusual step I'm going to attach a WIP version of the Loader. Firstly it should show that progress has been made, albeit not complete yet. Secondly, some posters on this thread are not testers but do have significant interest in this issue. Thirdly, it's useful to me to be sure of the right direction before it's too late. That said, I need to issue some warnings. This is a test version of the Loader. Not everything in it has been tested properly. It WILL alter the structure of any timetables you save with it. It might not load existing saved sims with a crew change already in progress correctly (suggest abandon and reinstate timetable if this happens). There may be other side effects. I suggest placing this and copies of any timetables in a separate folder. Crew changes are now an activity instead of a tick box - it turned out doing this at the same time as fixing the main problem wasn't much more effort. It's slightly unusual in that it's the only activity without an associated train, but it does mean you can re-order the crew change to happen after or before a divide, for example (it depends on a crew's roster as to who does the shunting usually). I have realised I forgot to add the "abandon crew change" option but will release this now anyway. I apologise for the problems caused by the recent release. Hopefully this interim build will address at least the worst of the issues. Again, this version is one to use at your own risk. If you're unsure, wait for the formal release (via "Check for updates"). Post has attachments. Log in to view them. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: 58050, Lyn-Greenwood, whatlep, Meld, KymriskaDraken, VInce, BarryM |
Never-ending crew change? 01/12/2017 at 17:52 #103551 | |
Lyn-Greenwood
![]() 239 posts |
Version 4.6.5.3 of the Loader seems to have fixed the long-standing problems with Crew Changes. Trains that have a Train-type crew-change dwell time now behave themselves and depart on time following the change of crew, whereas they always used to depart at 'scheduled departure time + crew-change dwell time' before v4.6.5 of the Loader was released, which caused them to never depart at all! However, the F2 list shows the scheduled departure time for the expected crew-change time, which suggests the dwell time has been ignored. Also the message window shows 'XXXX starting the crew change' as soon as the train has arrived, which in my tests is before the new crew arrive. Maybe this is correct, but I'm a bit dubious about that. I've attached a .zip file with the message log and several F2 lists for the tests that I did. 0Z01 & 0Z02 have a 2 minute Train-type crew-change dwell time and 0Z03 has a 2 minute Location dwell time with no crew-change dwell time. I hope the attachments are useful, Geoff. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
Never-ending crew change? 01/12/2017 at 20:24 #103553 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
Lyn-Greenwood in post 103551 said:Version 4.6.5.3 of the Loader seems to have fixed the long-standing problems with Crew Changes. Trains that have a Train-type crew-change dwell time now behave themselves and depart on time following the change of crew, whereas they always used to depart at 'scheduled departure time + crew-change dwell time' before v4.6.5 of the Loader was released, which caused them to never depart at all!The "starting the crew change" message is a debug message which will be removed (though the "finished" I intend to leave in). Granted it is a bit misleading as it is actually hanging around waiting for the crew change to happen - the finished message is the boarding time + 2 minutes. Your dwell time is 2 minutes and it left at 00:07, 2 minutes after the crew change time (so it is obeying the dwell time). There is a default crew change time if the custom dwell is zero. Thanks for the tests - but can you also attach your test timetable please? SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 01/12/2017 at 20:41 #103555 | |
VInce
![]() 579 posts |
DELETED
I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 01/12/2017 at 21:46 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Lyn-Greenwood |
Never-ending crew change? 01/12/2017 at 21:37 #103558 | |
Lyn-Greenwood
![]() 239 posts |
Geoff, I've attached the Test Timetable as requested. Silly of me not to have included it in the original .zip file. Lyn Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
Never-ending crew change? 05/12/2017 at 16:15 #103688 | |
Lyn-Greenwood
![]() 239 posts |
Geoff, Now you are working on an interim fix to the Crew-change Dwell-time issue, do you also intend to fix the long-standing problem with the Train-type Station Dwell-time (both of them) so that the Dwell-time is measured from the Actual Arrival time of the train rather than from the time its last Activity completes? I'm sure there would be some very happy users if it could be done now rather than when the mega-changes to the Dwell-time logic are agreed and implemented. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
Never-ending crew change? 05/12/2017 at 19:27 #103703 | |
VInce
![]() 579 posts |
Lyn-Greenwood in post 103688 said:Geoff,Indeed there would, Lyn. Despite being told repeatedly by many people in this thread that there was nothing wrong in 4.6.4 and I should stop banging on about it, this is just the problem I was alluding to. You and I discovered this issue when testing the original revamp of Peter Bennet's Peterborough 1977 Fridays only timetable only to be told by some on the forum then we were talking out of the back of our heads. If anyone should doubt this then please look back in the archives. Thank you for bringing it up and lets hope it can be rectified. I think I'd better stop now before I bang on too long again... Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 05/12/2017 at 20:01 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |