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| People disruppting mulit-player games. 18/02/2010 at 08:29 #6789 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Between the developers there has been discussion of a log file recording the actions taken by clients. It wouldn't be that big as even on busy panels you don't perform an action more than once every few seconds at best. In any case, a circular log would suffice if all you needed to know was who did something in the last few minutes. I don't think you need an entire session's worth of data, but if that was required then it's not a problem.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 18/02/2010 at 21:26 #6810 | |
GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
its a bit late now anyway because people are unwilling to let people they dont know play in there games, which makes it impossible for newcomers such as me to enjoy the benefits of a multi player game, ive asked many times to join since i registered and have been turned down everytime but one.so i feel the damage has been done because im not gonna ask anymore because its a waste of time. would host my self, but like i said am new. but oh well. will play something else.
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| People disruppting mulit-player games. 18/02/2010 at 21:43 #6811 | |
MrSuttonmann
265 posts |
Let that be a wake up call to us all. Let's scrap the "private" games or the "invite-only" games. Go back to how it was before, note down the IP address and nickname of every player that joins otherwise we'll end up with people like GoodbyeMrFish leaving and not playing again because they've been rejected. I have created a spreadsheet, similar to what the old forum used for meets, so that hosts can submit a list of IPs and names after their game has closed. That can be found here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dDZOYW9LaTNVQzlXQWowWmswSTcwQWc6MA&ifq The spreadsheet can be found here and is READ ONLY: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgyLnfOCpqYMdDZOYW9LaTNVQzlXQWowWmswSTcwQWc&hl=en_GB I hope this will help to resolve the issue. (Formerly known as manadude2) Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 19/02/2010 at 20:12 #6823 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Yes it is unfortunate that MrFish finds it hard to enter games, but with a huge spike in the number of disruptions in a short period people are very quickly becoming feed up. So at the momont it is private hosting or dont host at all for me and many other hosts. one thing I will say to MrFish and other newcomers is, Dont give up the ghost. there are many open hosted games still going on, and once I see you in these games once or twice and you are not causing trouble. Then you will be welcome to join my games and many other pivate games. Alan Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 19/02/2010 at 21:51 #6825 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
I would like to make it known that I refuse to post any IP addresses to that spreadsheet and will refuse to enter any games to which the hosts are uploading IP addresses to that form for personal safety and the safety of the participants of games for which I host. I would rather see disruption in the game than see people that take part in these sims get hacked because someone has accessed that form and started probing into the IP addresses. This is not an attack on you or your idea James; but just something that I think is not safe due to the public nature of that spreadsheet. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 19/02/2010 at 21:53 #6826 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
Now onto an idea which I believe is safe and is useful to block anti-social players. By only posting the game data in the Hosting forum; guests can not access it, leaving only forum users able to access the sim. By asking for forum names, we can easily see who the problem people are. My last few games, I have required a forum name to link to the game name and have encountered no problems with that. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 19/02/2010 at 21:55 #6827 | |
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MrSuttonmann
265 posts |
lpeters said:I would like to make it known that I refuse to post any IP addresses to that spreadsheet and will refuse to enter any games to which the hosts are uploading IP addresses to that form for personal safety and the safety of the participants of games for which I host. Idea: Post the IP addresses as such: 88.44.XX.3 or something such... so that we can see part but not all of the IP. (Formerly known as manadude2) Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 19/02/2010 at 22:45 #6828 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
A lot of the disrupted mplays were with IPs in the hosting forum, hence by a registered user. And there's nothing to stop a registered user 'posing' with any forum name when joining.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 19/02/2010 at 23:46 #6829 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
I too would like to make it known that I would not be happy to have my IP Address displayed so publicly. This is obviously a huge security risk and would again defeat the object of that method as the malicious player will know my IP Address so could just join my game again anyway (even if had given out a redirect address such as 'host.redirection.org' (completely fictitious by the way) to players) and also they could still access this list even if they were banned from the forums. Asking for their forum name is again not totally safe as, as I believe I have said before, it is all too easy to claim to be someone else. I could join a game and say "Hi guys it's Peter Bennet!" and if the host notes my IP Address is different then I just have to say "Yeah I've changed ISPs". Posting the IP Addresses with masks (i.e: 012.345.678.910 as 012.xxx.678.910) leaves just three numbers for someone to guess in perhaps a couple of hours or an automated computer program to work out in a matter of minutes! Now, I'm still sure that a secured list of those IPs that are either known to be or at least suspected to be malicious players would be the best bet. This means that hosts can have a look at the lists of IP Address to reject from their games and also this 'intel' can be shared with Peter and/or Geoff for them to block the IP Addresses from the forum or at least 'close' any user accounts being used to login with from those IP Addresses. Another option would be for Geoff or Peter to look in the back office of the forum and see if there is a setting to only allow access to the 'Notification of Hosting' area to those who have a minimum amount of posts - this means that those who want to join games have to post some genuine messages first. Although this of course may not be ideal. I'm pretty sure that there is something out there that can be done to combat this problem but it really must be something that everyone is happy with. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 00:17 #6830 | |
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GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
maybe a longshot but here my idea, having SimSig authenticate people. eg, when you connect to a multiplayer game you have to login with your forum username and password SimSig will then connect to the login page here and if login succesful, then it lets you play. at least then youll be able to link a player with there user account. you can encrpt it so no one can sniff passwords. that way ip address still stay private.
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| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 00:19 #6831 | |
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GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
oh and for the record i wasnt having a ago at anyone or anything, i meen if i was hosting a game and had disruptive players id probably do the same if it bugged me enough. i dont blame anyone for making games private. just makes it harder for noobs like me to get started, but thats the players who are disruptive fault.
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| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 14:00 #6834 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
I can understand Afro's stance on this. If I was a betting man I'd be willing to put a large wager on this (http://www.SimSig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_agora&task=profile&page=preview&user_id=662&Itemid=54) user not having the joys of railway signalling as the primary reason for joining the forum and just goes to show that only posting IP adresses in the hosting section of the forum isn't a foolproof method of keeping the unwanted out.
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 14:34 #6835 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Thanks for drawing that to our attention. Just trying to work out how to delete the username- it's not as easy as I assumed but I have deallocted it. The user does not seem to have ever accessed the forum after joining. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 15:58 #6836 | |
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MattJ
16 posts |
It's a tough problem. Having been in the flight simulation world, there have been parallel issues of people coming in wanting to disrupt. The other thing to bear in mind is that we're trying to find a technical solution to a social problem; good technical solutions can be 90%+ effective, but it won't keep the most dedicated troublemaker out. However, given this is a relatively small and niche community, the cost benefit for someone wanting to disrupt having to jump through lots of hoops is pretty small. So, thoughts: * Centralized authentication for multiplayer sessions within SimSig. You have to be on the Internet in order to play, so therefore providing a non-repudiatory method of saying "this client is known by this globally unique name" would work. I guess it could be tied up with the forum logins; I have no idea if Joomla has any "external authentication" support, or whether something could be added which uses the same username and password database. However, the big nonstarter with this one is that it causes the developers lots more work in retrofitting code to older sims, as well as the web authentication bits. It's doable but painful. * Connection approval: Have some method -- either automated or non-automated -- of approving connections. The non-automated way I'm thinking of is below; it does put more work onto the person hosting, but it depends on how much they are concerned about disruption. 1. Host posts notification of a game on the Hosting board as usual, but instead of including an IP address includes something like "Contact me via private message for IP and joining information." (Therefore the knowledge of the existence of the game + the host is already limited to forum members -- not a high bar, but a bar nonetheless.) 2. Upon receiving private message from a member, the host then gives out the usual IP/port information and some password or one-time "nonce" which the user should be told to "say" upon getting the notice that the server has synchronized. If the host uses one-time nonces unique per game and player, they will then be able to identify which forum member got the nonce and is being disruptive. 3a. Player connects as normal, "says" the nonce upon connecting, host recognizes the nonce and ties it up with a forum name -- everyone's happy. 3b. Player connects and doesn't say the nonce: gets kicked (possibly with a message to go read the forum post if the host is feeling benevolent). There are certainly technical means which could help the implementation of the second idea (e.g. some webapp which automatically generates nonces and allows hosts to key in a nonce given in a game and find out who it is). Yes, it's clunky, but if you want to retrofit security onto a protocol which wasn't designed for it (no criticism of Geoff and folks -- there *was* just no need for it!) then it's going to either be a clunky solution or need lots of programming. Matt (aka MWJ) Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 21:53 #6842 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Speaking as a core code developer, I'm *extremely* loath to try and fit complex authentication mechanisms into SimSig. As for "You have to be on the Internet in order to play", that's just wrecked all future meets. And what if someone wants to put together a private game - why should it have to be tied to authentication via the forum? SimSig uses TCP/IP for connections, so it would be perfectly possible for someone else to write a security system for it. The game is advertised on port (say) 50505 on the host's IP address, but this is actually the security software. If the connection is accepted by the security system, it then opens a connection to the real game on some other port and relays all communications. That separates the security issues from the game itself. It means that if one security system turns out to have problems, another one can be written without disrupting all existing simulations. And it means that it's not competing with real game development for Geoff's and my time, since anyone who's a programmer can do it. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 20/02/2010 at 23:35 #6844 | |
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MattJ
16 posts |
Clive, Whoops. Forgot the LAN meet case -- indeed. (And agree with you completely on the integrated authentication being a non-starter.) --M Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 21/02/2010 at 21:58 #6859 | |
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pebbens
20 posts |
As always... the 'terrorist' always changes the habits of ordinary life (as much as any Gov or anyone would say otherwise...)
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| People disruppting mulit-player games. 25/02/2010 at 04:47 #6930 | |
northroad
872 posts |
Guys, As a Sim Sigger (I consider myself to be beginner level still compared to lots of others) who has never ventured into Multi Player games could I offer a few observations. I think I am right in saying that the Sim Sig pages are freely available to the world and so they should be for such a great game. The forum has pages that can be accessed/read by all and so they should be, however the Notification of Hosting page is only available to those persons who have registered as a user and is used for the recording of the relevant IP addresses and other information about when the game will start etc. The tracking of the offenders is not made any easier by postings in the shout box that is also readable by anyone out here. Although well meant and an easy way of alerting others to things that are short lived, I have seen today that the person causing problems last night had the identification of PIZA. I have also seen persons IP addresses posted there. This is not meant as a personal go at anyone so please do not take it that way but it does seem to me that if you are trying to stop this problem then it is not being made any easier by airing information publicly in the shout box thereby giving people access to what is needed to get into and continue to cause problems and also information that they may be in the process of being identified . Surely if you want to eleiminate it then you need first remember to use the notification of Hosting pages as the main page for this discussion and problem. This has got to be more secure than the open forum. From reading the help pages about Multi Playing you need a four character word/code for registering who is in charge of each panel or box. Could this be used to help track the problem. If people were to register a four character coding when registering in Sim Sig and it is was only possible for that four character code to be used once against a particular mail address/IP address this would give you a way of tracking who was logged onto the game. The four character code registering process being the same as getting a mail address when you are told you cannot use one that has it has already been taken by someone else. Also to only allow one regstration by each registered Sim Sig user. I don't know if this is possible/feasable and if so if it would take up too much of peoples time or even be realistic to implement but I do believe that just a small amount of added security may be enough to deter some of the idiots that you seem to be having to live with and it would also be a way that would not exclude those that do want to use the Multi Player option sensibly and for great enjoyment. Who knows you might even find me wanting to get into a game one of these days. Geoff Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 25/02/2010 at 13:50 #6935 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Picking up on MattJ and Clive's comments. Although joining through the Site is a none starter, it could be used for verification of those wishing to join a game. (1) MP game XYZ, starting AA:AA, finish BB:BB. Please notify by ZZ:ZZ on AA/BB/CC if you wish to join using your USER NAME. (2) Check replies and respond using the PM function of the User List. Your response could be either connection details or request conformation of wishing to join. If the later, then on conformation you send the connection information and possibly an ID they should use when they make the connection. As the host, you then have conformation that the join request was from the real person and a full user name ID. Anyone wishing to join the game has to go through this check or they don't get in. Nothing about the game to go anywhere other than the Hosting forum and connection info by PM's only. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 25/02/2010 at 13:52 #6936 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Geoff (AKA Northroad), The IP you see in the shoutbox is the IP that PIZA connected to the game using, although may I say it is not right to post any IP in the shoutbox. If any host has the IP of a problematic player the IP should not be posted as it alerts the disrupter of the information you have about them. Instead the IP should be sent directly to Geoff Mayo or Peter Bennet. I'm not sure how much of the previous comments on the this thread you have read Northroad, But is repeated time and time again that it is acctually registered users with access to 'The notification of hosting' section that are causing the disruption. Although you are genuinley trying to be helpful which we all appreciate as any input on resolving this issue is welcome, all the things you have outlined above are being adhered to with the disruption still happening which is now why there is so many private games happening. Alan. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 25/02/2010 at 14:03 #6938 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Aaah. Alan, I was not aware of that. So some of my last will do nothing to stop the problem other than conformation that those who joined where who they said they where. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 25/02/2010 at 14:04 #6939 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Also with regards to the 4 character name used to show who is controling which panel can be changed when logging into each game for example, I use ALAN, but there is another alan on the site so if he is also in the same MP then I will use AFRO. Which also from the IP we have note SCIP/MO/GEOF/PIZA all seem to be the one player. The IP address is registered to the Carphone Warehouse in salisbury, but could be anywhere in a couple of mile radius from there. Alan Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 25/02/2010 at 14:09 #6941 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
dave, We figured out it was registered users when the disruption happend in my game which MO admitted purposely disrupting the game. As I never have or never will place my IP outside the notification of hosting thread, so by process of elimination, it had to be a registered forum member to obtain my IP. But by all means there's some good positive advice in your previous posts, especially for anyone thinking of hosting for the first time. Alan. Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 26/02/2010 at 00:52 #6957 | |
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Pizzawesley
10 posts |
who is PIZA, any idea, because it isn't me since I don't live in the UK.... It could be someone trying to blame it on me, and get me in trouble and I have NEVER changed my user-initials Log in to reply |
| People disruppting mulit-player games. 26/02/2010 at 01:40 #6958 | |
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MrSuttonmann
265 posts |
Actually, the fact that the IP address is registered to the Carphone Warehouse in Sailsbury does not mean that it is being used there. Sometimes a WHOIS gets it wrong and displays who the IP address is registered WITH, not who it is registered TO. For instance: Say, like we have here, a person signed up for Carphone Warehouse's internet package in Salisbury (I'm not even sure if they do an internet package, and to be honest quite a few IP WHOIS have displayed Carphone Warehouse) but they don't live in Salisbury, they live in Dawlish, in Devon. The WHOIS will display the ISP because it is either acting as a proxy or the ISP doesn't want people to know who use their subscription for any reason (Privacy, Protection of Customers, etc). Therefore the user could be anywhere in the country, but the WHOIS will always display Carphone Warehouse, Salisbury. Hope that makes sense 
(Formerly known as manadude2) Log in to reply |