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| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 11:36 #111361 | |
VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, I'm in the early days of doing a revamp of Ed's 1981 Exeter timetable and I'm hoping to do it along similar lines to the revamp I did of Peter Bennett's Peterborough 1977 timetable which proved quite popular. It is a very busy and at times, intense timetable with loco run round at Paington, Exeter, Tiverton Junction and Taunton, often simultaneously The initial phase is almost complete and is under test. I have added several features to the timetable that were not available to Ed when he created it a number of years ago as it was originally written in pre-loader days. So I have done the following so far... 1) Made it a real-world timetable, in the sense that freight, parcel and news trains can arrive and depart early as they really did and passenger trains have a realistic station time and do not default to 30 seconds when running late. Crew changes have also been added. 2) There was a major problem at Paignton. Paignton run-rounds now stand a sporting chance of leaving on-time. Part of the problem was the delay in the sim closing the Goodrington crossing for the engine as well as the lengthy time it takes for PN3 to clear for reversing light engines from Goodrington to P2. I have had to reduce the attach, detach and station forward and station reverse times to generally impractical levels achieve a solution. 3) Request stops implemented on the Barnstaple and Exmouth branches in accordance with the practices of the day. 4) Loco hauled run rounds at Taunton now either run round on the goods reception and depart from P2 eastwards, or run round on the loop at Tiverton Junction if there is time to achieve this. This again should mean that trains achieve a right-time departure which was not possible, certainly with 1E75. 5) Trip working, consistent with the practices of the day have been added, along with additional light engine movements to work trains to and from Riverside. On-track machine transit movements added as well as as a Matisa track recording trolley working overnight on the Barnstaple branch. All engineers trains, trip working, light engine run rounds and other local shunts are untimed, as they would have been in those days, leaving it up to the user to fit them in amongst other traffic. 6) Locos and units shunting off various roads in the West Yard have been added. 7) Also added is an early morning road learning unit which runs from Westbury to Exeter via Honiton and returns via Taunton. This involves a lot of shunting in the Exeter Central and Taunton areas and is again, typical of how drivers acquired a portion of their night-time road knowledge in those days. 8) Found a way to stop those somewhat irritating "passenger delays" being attributed to parcel and ECS trains. The trick is to designate the Class of Service to "Goods" in the "Class of Service" box on the Miscellaneous tab of the timetable editor. It does not affect TRTS seemingly, and parcels trains still "bell out" when ready. Here's where I have hit a brick wall. I can't locate any stock formations or diagrams from 1981 - the BRCS Yahoo group has proved invaluable in the past but doesn't help in this case. As it stands the only thing to go on is the timing loads which is a very general guess as to the actual number of vehicles conveyed and may well be very inaccurate. So, if any historic timetable lover can help with the following I would be grateful:- 1) Stock workings from 1981 2) Freight traffic flows to/from and through the Exeter area 3) Any other operating information from 1981 for the Exeter area. Also I seem unable to contact Ed Jeffery or find an e-mail address for him. I don't feel it is right to publish anything like this without his approval as he has done the major work and I am just revamping it. What is the general view here - should I publish with due credit, or not publish at all? Thanks, Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 12:36 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: flabberdacks |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 11:56 #111363 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
Pascal has a slightly later trip notice I, used for a 1989 - timetable but if it helps there was a twice daily trip from Riverside to Exeter Central to serve the cement terminal. These wagons came off the speed link services calling at Riverside. There's also ballast from Riverside towards Salisbury (banked up the incline). Then there's the as required trips from Riverside to city basin and back. There's also a trip from Riverside to Tiverton Redland siding but I'm not sure if this ran that early. The city basin and central trips were worked by the area pilot. There's also the Taunton area pilot which trips to the cider siding and concrete depot as required I haven't played the 81 timetable before but it's worth mentioning new yard wasnt connected as it is now and ECS from the southern was either stabled in west yard or Riverside goods loop. This may need amending also. Hope some of that helps "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bossman |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 12:17 #111364 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
jc92 in post 111363 said:Pascal has a slightly later trip notice I, used for a 1989 - timetable but if it helps there was a twice daily trip from Riverside to Exeter Central to serve the cement terminal. These wagons came off the speed link services calling at Riverside. There's also ballast from Riverside towards Salisbury (banked up the incline).Thank you - that's most helpful. I've got a trip running to/from Taunton Concrete but I will add a trip from Fairwater to/from Taunton Cider - I presume I'm right in saying Taunton Cider masquerades as the West Somerset railway in the sim? The bit about the New Yard I didn't know. If I understand correctly then, any loco hauled train fro the Southern would run into Platforms 1 or 3 and then run ECS to Riverside to run round - is that right? In Ed's timetable, these all use the New Yard which would not then have been possible. Thanks for the information about the westbound trips. I do have trips doing this but not in the form you have outlined. I shall do some work on that too. Do you have any knowledge of what happened at Alphington Road in this era? I'm aware that this is the stub of a former branch which connected with the Heathfield branch but all I can find out as to what went on there is that it seems to have been associated with Texaco oil traffic. Thank you again - most useful Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 12:18 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 13:00 #111366 | |
58050
2659 posts |
Wince I do have in e-format all the BR Western region Loco Diagrams for 1981-1982 covering Old Oak Common, Bristol Bath Road, Cardiff Canton, Swansea Landoew & Plymouth Laira if you are interested. You can get all the associated trip workings off those diagrams as well as the shuntere duties. Drop me an e-mail if you are interested.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 14:08 #111371 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
There's no Alphington road trip in the newer trip notice but If you want to put it in, it was worked by the area pilot off Riverside the same as city basin. I'm not sure if it was still practice in 81 but it used to stop at St Thomas to collect the key for the LC gates on the Alphington Road branch, then stop on return to drop them off. Regarding Southern sets, they would have arrived into P4 (old layout as the PSB hadn't opened) and then either run round and depart from P4, or shunted to P3 depending on traffic. Some sets ran through into Riverside yard to run round and stable short term. The sets that stabled overnight were shunted to west yard. New Yard wouldn't really have been in use at the time and actually connected to the down main the other side of red cow LC. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 14:44 #111374 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
The BR Western Region loco diagrams I've sent Vince should cover everything he needs both freight, passenger & Trip wise. All the local trips were usually booked for local Western Region engines unless something was working out of diagrm.
Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 14:46 by 58050 Reason: corrected font Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 19:09 #111389 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Thank you. I need to do some more research into the old layout, and how I can compromise it to fit in with the sim (PSB) layout. Regarding trains from the southern I will have to route into the current P1 or P3 either run round/re-engine in situ, or go to Riverside to run round and wait for their return service. Most of them have significant layover time so Riverside looks favourite to me. I see some evidence on a quick internet trawl that Alphington Road continued to be used after 1986 so I will put in a trip and possibly tie it up with City Basin. I now have some loco-diagrams from Pascal and I see just how much work is required especially at Newton Abbot. I was already aware that the sim is a compromise of the 1981 NA layout but I'm sure I can make it work. Thank you again. Just as an aside, I have found some WR carriage working for 1980 ( a year early) on the BRCS site which will be useful. I don't know why I missed them before. Vince PS - I think its fair to say that this will not be a short-term project! I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 19:21 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 19:21 #111390 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Vince don't forget there's a pilot loco outstabled at Meldon Quarry too. You might see the diagram amongst that lot I sent you whereby it returns to Exeter SD once a week for fuel & maintenance.
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| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 20:38 #111394 | |
Simdmuk
155 posts |
Vince There's is some info on rmweb about some of the local workings in the area in this period.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83609-western-region-1980s-freight-west-of-england-division-my-photos/page-2 This link https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=423 shows City Basin area in 1962 although the layout remained relatively unchanged to the late 70's early 80's. Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 20:45 by Simdmuk Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 20:49 #111395 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
I've had a little rummage and I have a station working book for Exeter 1981
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 20:53 #111396 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
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I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 21:29 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 20:54 #111397 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
jc92 in post 111395 said:I've had a little rummage and I have a station working book for Exeter 1981That sounds an excellent find. Is there a chance you could scan it and e-mail it to me? Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 22/08/2018 at 20:57 #111399 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Simdmuk in post 111394 said:Vince There's is some info on rmweb about some of the local workings in the area in this period.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83609-western-region-1980s-freight-west-of-england-division-my-photos/page-2Some fabulous stuff there, especially the trip consists shown in pictures. The layout at Alphington Road also answers a question I had about whether a train could run round inside there. Also found a layout for Exeter West SB on the Signalling Record site which gives me a good idea of the original layout - thank you again. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 22/08/2018 at 21:29 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Simdmuk |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 23/08/2018 at 14:09 #111410 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
What year is your West 'box diagram dated to? There were some alterations that changed which moves were possible in later years, the main one being that passenger trains could depart "backwards" Platform 4 towards Central. The SVRSig site has versions dated 1959, 1963, and 1970: http://www.svrsig.org/diags/S833.htm Of course, there'll be plenty of work to convert the timetable from using P3/P4 for Central trains to P1/P3. Having considered it before, my best idea is to make old P4 into Simsig P3, old P3 into Simsig P1, and old P1 into Simsig P4. However, you then lose the challenges of conflicting moves between P1 and P3/P4 (almost like they redesigned it like that on purpose, eh?). Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 24/08/2018 at 10:56 #111443 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Danny252 in post 111410 said:What year is your West 'box diagram dated to? There were some alterations that changed which moves were possible in later years, the main one being that passenger trains could depart "backwards" Platform 4 towards Central. The SVRSig site has versions dated 1959, 1963, and 1970: http://www.svrsig.org/diags/S833.htmIts actually from this site https://www.signalbox.org/ co-run by a friend of mine from our Derby PSB days. It appears to be undated but helps considerably in understanding how things worked. I've attached the image below with due acknowledgement to "The Signal Box" and its owners Post has attachments. Log in to view them. I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 24/08/2018 at 10:57 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 24/08/2018 at 12:26 #111445 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
That's correct other than the goods line being truncated and some of the signalling in and out of West yard/loco shed changing.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 24/08/2018 at 14:17 #111451 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
VInce in post 111443 said:Who's that then? I didn't realise John had got himself a partner in crime. Though he does have a team of moderators for the Blower (currently engineering blockade, in case anyone goes looking) nowadays. Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 24/08/2018 at 18:20 #111464 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
kbarber in post 111451 said:VInce in post 111443 said:See this page.... its the first name on the list https://www.signalbox.org/sectionc.phpWho's that then? I didn't realise John had got himself a partner in crime. Though he does have a team of moderators for the Blower (currently engineering blockade, in case anyone goes looking) nowadays. I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/08/2018 at 10:11 #111547 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
VInce in post 111464 said:kbarber in post 111451 said:VInce in post 111443 said:See this page.... its the first name on the list https://www.signalbox.org/sectionc.phpWho's that then? I didn't realise John had got himself a partner in crime. Though he does have a team of moderators for the Blower (currently engineering blockade, in case anyone goes looking) nowadays. Thanks Vince, didn't realise John was spreading the running of the site. Don't blame him though, it's a huge thing to keep up, as well as one of the best places on the web. Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/09/2018 at 15:59 #112346 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Sadly, I have ceased work on a six-day version of Ed's 1981 Exeter timetable. I was already aware that Exeter PSB did not open until the mid-80s and thus the sim was essentially a compromise of the early 80s layout. I now realise that the real day-to-day timetable would have to be so significantly adjusted to take account of this that it would be nowhere near to being an accurate reflection of how things would have been in the early 80s. This is not a comprehensive list but areas that were significantly different to that as shown in the sim include:- Cogload Jcn, Taunton, Taunton Yard, Norton Fitzwarren - Wellington, Tiverton, Hele, Lapford, Eggesford, Barnstaple, Exeter St Davids, Exeter New Yard, Exeter Central, Newton Abbot, Newton Abbot Station Yard and Totnes. All in all, if I had produced a timetable it would have been pretty much a work of fiction and there seems to me to be little point in doing that. Thanks to all of those who had helped in providing data for the timetable and I'm very sorry it has come to nought but I hope you understand my reasoning. I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 27/09/2018 at 16:02 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/09/2018 at 16:12 #112348 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
VInce in post 112346 said:I was already aware that Exeter PSB did not open until the mid-80s and thus the sim was essentially a compromise of the early 80s layout.Sorry to hear about the timetable. I'd like to point out that the sim is per the current PSB (minus any recent changes), and not a compromise at all. I don't know the full detail before but I believe there was a fair bit of rationalisation when the PSB opened. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/09/2018 at 18:18 #112350 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
GeoffM in post 112348 said:VInce in post 112346 said:Geoff,I was already aware that Exeter PSB did not open until the mid-80s and thus the sim was essentially a compromise of the early 80s layout.Sorry to hear about the timetable. I'd like to point out that the sim is per the current PSB (minus any recent changes), and not a compromise at all. I don't know the full detail before but I believe there was a fair bit of rationalisation when the PSB opened. No problem, Geoff. I did appreciate that and that there would be a number of issues. The compromise I meant was that the timetable would have to be compromised to fit the sim and I'm sorry I didn't make that entirely clear. The problem was that I just didn't realise how much until I'd worked on it for a while. I should have researched it more thoroughly than I did. I knew there would have to be some alterations - for instance in 1981, there was access to/from P4 from Exeter Central, something the timetable appears to rely on, especially in terms of freight and banking up the incline. Additionally, Exeter New Yard was not connected to P1 & P3 in 1981 but that problem was easily solved, as trains to/from the SR ran round if required on the loops within Riverside Yard. Taunton Yard existed and was quite busy and the goods lines were still in place there. Newton Abbot Yard was busy too. The GL/RL extended as far as Wellington and there was some kind of recess facility at Hele if the timetables of the day are to be believed. I'd already substituted Fairwater Yard for Taunton Yard and adjusted timings accordingly, and made all trains to/from the SR run round within Exeter Yard. Its being a good educational process for me at any rate - thanks again. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 27/09/2018 at 18:20 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: GeoffM |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/02/2019 at 18:37 #116047 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, I had a change of heart and I recommenced the refurbishment of Ed Jeffery's Exeter 1981 timetable and I am now well into the testing stage. Just to recap, the timetable will be a 5-day one, actual planned train formations (including locos) have been added for all passenger trains and extensive research done on the freight flows which have been included in the timetable. The following features have been added :- 1) Request stops on both the Exmouth branch and Barnstaple branch. 2) All light engine movements before and after working trains 3) Most diagrammed light engine balance working, except where these would have been unlikely to have run (e.g. there are some very silly diagrammed balances like LD running Bescot to Laira which would never have actually run in practice. These have not been included.) 4) Much research into actual trips which ran on both a daily and occasional basis has been done and these added with typical loadings. 5) Most HST movements have four alternatives namely HST, HST with 1 power car and two loco hauled substitutions hauled by either a Class 50 or a Class 47. The conditions under which HSTs were allowed to operate over the Devon banks with only one PC were closely controlled and there were many conditions to fulfil before it was authorised. An attempt has been made to simulate some of these. None should stop at Totnes and also clear runs from Newton Abbot to Ivybridge were deemed essential. In the timetable the maximum speed of an HST on 1 PC I have made 80mph (although in practice the normal maximum could be achieved, albeit taking a much longer time to reach 125mph) also the acceleration rate has been adjusted to freight standards in order to reduce the normal rate) After many tests I think a realistic "one power car" scenario has been achieved. A number of compromises have had to be made due to the rationalisation which took place between 1981 and the opening of Exeter PSB (on which the sim is based) in 1985/6 :- 1) Taunton Yard is replaced by using either Fairwater Yard or Taunton Dock Siding. Similarly the West Somerset Railway becomes the Taunton Cider Siding. This is true to life as this was the Taunton Cider Siding in 1981. 2) Two trains which were shown to recess for other trains to pass at Hele have been slightly retimed so as this is not now necessary. 3) No use is made of Exeter New Yard since that was NOT connected to Platform 1,2 and 3 in 1981. Similarly there is no access to and from the incline to Platform 4 in the sim but this was possible in 1981. 4) Most passenger trains from the SR are able to be accommodated in the platform for run round purposes, and those that can't, go forward to Riverside Yard Reception road to run round. The locos off these trains exit the yard at the Cowley Bridge end and re-enter at the west end. This is true to life as this is how they would have been dealt with in 1981. 5) Extensive use is made of Hackney Yard to replace Newton Abbot Yard. 6) Some Paignton services were booked twelve vehicles plus loco but these cannot be accommodated at Paignton Platform 2 for run round purposes. These have been reduced by 1 TSO to eleven vehicles. 7) The Stoneycombe branch was closed during this period so the trip which serviced this branch cannot be simulated. Similarly Hele paper mill was shown to be serviced at this time but cannot be simulated. 8) There was particularly extensive rationalisation on the Barnstaple branch. Even so, an attempt has been made to simulate the trip (6B73) which called at Crediton, Lapford and Barnstaple itself. Instead in shunting inside clear at Lapford and Barnstaple, it stands blocking the single line for a prescribed period of time, thus will require careful handling in order not to delay the passenger service. 9) Plus too many other minor tweaks to mention. One issue I would like to get a consensus view before release. Nationally at this time, all services over short branch lines carried the same reporting number for every train. This practice ceased in the mid-90s after an incident in which two trains with the same reporting number were on a panel at the same time in the same area and the wrong one was talked past a signal at danger, resulting in a low-speed derailment. In this timetable all of the Exeter SD - Exmouth and Exmouth - Exeter SD trains carry 2B84. In this timetable numbers run from 2B84-01 to 2B84-47 all with different UID's of course. When two or more are on the panel at the same time Simsig does not always show the correct train when clicking on the train describer berth and this could lead to confusion, especially when platforming at Exeter SD. I can leave them like this, or give each one a different 2Fxx description which, whilst it would not be realistic of the time, would prevent the confusion. I would like your views on this please. There will be a much fuller guide to what's been done with Ed's timetable at the time of release... Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 27/02/2019 at 20:50 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Stephen Fulcher, ajax103, norman B, WesternChampion, Phil-jmw |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/02/2019 at 19:02 #116050 | |
ajax103
1120 posts |
If your Peterborough timetable is anything to go by, this one looks to be a really good one too! Looking forward to playing it 
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Exeter 1981 - Ed Jeffery 27/02/2019 at 22:33 #116065 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
ajax103 in post 116050 said:If your Peterborough timetable is anything to go by, this one looks to be a really good one too!I agree. Keep up the good work Vince. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |