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Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 11:52 #111919 | |
postal
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Sacro in post 111918 said:Oh I'm now more confused. I was disputing the need to get on/off the train where tickets change.That is the corner case in regard to AP tickets which I tried to elucidate. Allowing for the particular corner case about whether the legalistic is view is that you should alight and reboard at the changeover point to your AP ticket, your point about cessation of journey is irrelevant if we are discussing the point in regard to AP tickets that Hap was making and that the NR website confirms. That is what I thought I was discussing. Are we discussing that point or have you moved the ground to another discussion point about definition of "a journey"? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 12:00 #111920 | |
Sacro
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postal in post 111919 said:Sacro in post 111918 said:Can I have that in English a Yorkshireman would understand?Oh I'm now more confused. I was disputing the need to get on/off the train where tickets change.That is the corner case in regard to AP tickets which I tried to elucidate. Allowing for the particular corner case about whether the legalistic is view is that you should alight and reboard at the changeover point to your AP ticket, your point about cessation of journey is irrelevant if we are discussing the point in regard to AP tickets that Hap was making and that the NR website confirms. That is what I thought I was discussing. Are we discussing that point or have you moved the ground to another discussion point about definition of "a journey"? Log in to reply |
Glasgow Meet, Saturday 8th. September 2018. 06/09/2018 at 12:14 #111922 | |
Hap
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Hands up. I stand corrected. After looking through the CoT. As long as minimum connection time is given then multiple tickets will be treated as one full journey. And in trouble is the person who fed me that other info. *hides*
How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Last edited: 06/09/2018 at 16:03 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 12:40 #111923 | |
postal
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Sacro in post 111920 said:Can I have that in English a Yorkshireman would understand?If you are using an AP ticket, you must use it for the full distance between origin and destination. That is the point Hap made and that I followed up with the link to the NR website. You jumped in and said that the link to the NR website was irrelevant. All I have done since is try to explain to you why it is not irrelevant to the point Hap made. You have clearly been arguing about something else so it would be best if we call this quits and you can go off and confuse someone else by raising a point then spending many hours arguing about a totally different point. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 12:43 #111924 | |
DriverCurran
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Using my knowledge of the Yorkshire language (from hearing people referring to going up t'moors when talking about the NYMR) I would imagine that it would start along the lines of..... T'hat t'is t'corner case.... I shall now get my hat and call TAXIIIIIII. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 12:51 #111925 | |
clive
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postal in post 111904 said:Peter and I dissect this sort of stuff for a living and we disagree with you. postal in post 111904 said: No, it isn't. What it says is that you have to go from the origin to the destination; you can't only do part of the journey on the ticket. So if I have a Cambridge to Liverpool Street Advance, I can't start my journey at Shelford and I can't end it at Tottenham Hale. postal in post 111904 said: Correct, but that's not what you said. In any case, all of that is subservient to the rules about combining tickets. In my previous example, I can continue my journey to Stratford (using a second ticket) and I can board the train at Waterbeach if I have a separate Waterbeach to Cambridge ticket. I am *not* required to get off the train at Cambridge and get back on. And my journey is clearly - under the terms and conditions - one from Waterbeach to Stratford. What that wording says I *can't* do is to catch a direct service from Tottenham Hale to Stratford rather than changing at Liverpool Street, because that would be ending the Advance at an intermediate station. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sacro |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 14:08 #111929 | |
postal
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Clearly I mis-counted the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin and stand corrected. However, I understood what Hap meant and we all seem to be agreed on that.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 06/09/2018 at 14:09 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 18:30 #111937 | |
Hap
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I'm really quite embarrassed, This is information that I've been dishing out last few years. And that's with 11 years dealing with tickets. Absolutely mortified at how this thread has developed because of poor information on my part. Can only apologise. I never felt the need to refer back to CoT when you've sought the information from what you believe is a trusted source (This was some time back) perhaps before Delay Repay became a massive thing. Spend most time teaching the job I do and now feel like I need to take myself back to school and relearn. Especially when it came to split ticketing with Advance. Thankfully though, when discussed at work, I wasn't the only one who has been led down this thinking... Again, sorry and please don't roast me on Saturday. Going to hide away in a corner. :-/ How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sacro |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 21:36 #111940 | |
Sacro
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Hap in post 111937 said:I'm really quite embarrassed, This is information that I've been dishing out last few years. And that's with 11 years dealing with tickets. Absolutely mortified at how this thread has developed because of poor information on my part. Can only apologise. I never felt the need to refer back to CoT when you've sought the information from what you believe is a trusted source (This was some time back) perhaps before Delay Repay became a massive thing.Good of you to stand up and admit it :) Sadly many of the people who work on the railways dish out wrong information on a daily basis, some of it can date back to BR days! At least if we can slowly spread the updated rules it'll make people's lives easier! I'm not going on Saturday, but I can't guarantee Karl won't roast you! (PS. Karl - roast him for me!) Last edited: 06/09/2018 at 21:50 by Sacro Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Ar88 |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 06/09/2018 at 22:52 #111944 | |
GeoffM
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Hap in post 111937 said:I'm really quite embarrassed, This is information that I've been dishing out last few years. And that's with 11 years dealing with tickets. Absolutely mortified at how this thread has developed because of poor information on my part. Can only apologise.Not many people would stand up and admit that so good for you. To be honest, I doubt it's your fault anyway. I recall years ago being on the pre-7pm train from London Waterloo to Bristol which had a peak hour exemption. The conductor was dealing out several penalty notices (or whatever they were) until he got to us where he was handed the book o' words that clearly stated this train was an exception. He said his boss told him literally before the train left that he was to collar anybody with the wrong (which was not wrong) ticket. A combination of shame and anger came across his face when he saw the official wording. So don't feel bad - laugh about it on Saturday with the others (sadly I can't be there). TBH ticketing in the UK is horrendously overcomplicated. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 07/09/2018 at 18:57 #111975 | |
Peter Bennet
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OK, looking for some thoughts on how the NCCs apply, or should have applied to my experience on Wednesday this week. I had an AP ticket Biggleswade to Glasgow Central via Leeds and Carlisle. That entailed travelling on GTR, LNER, NR & VWC, in that order. The 10.49 Leeds Carlisle failed at Keighley and we were de-trained (at which point the train then scuttled off). The guard also got off and was really good, getting on to control and advising that there as a bus on standby at Skipton. However, it was a 16 seater and there were at least 50 passengers for Carlisle alone. By now I was not that bothered at going this route as clearly the point was to do the S&C so I put it to the guard that as I was going to Glasgow would it be simpler for me to go back to Leeds and catch a train to Edinburgh and thence to Glasgow from there - he thought that an really good idea, one less for him to worry about. So I hoved my way back to Leeds where I stopped a help desk, just to confirm what to do. The the chap there was very unhelpful and said I must travel via Carlisle no matter what and the fact that the train had failed was not his problem, it was mine. I then realised this was an LNER manned desk. At that point, I saw that there was an XC train going directly to Glasgow so trotted down to it and discussed with the Guard. He was having none of it, muttering something about ticket acceptance; though he was sympathetic to the proposition that as far as I was concerned I had a ticket to Glasgow, the train I was supposed to be was not going anywhere but his was going to Glasgow, therefore what was the problem? He also did not believe me when I said that trains on the S&C were few and far between. By this time there was not long to wait for the next S&C train, about 3 hours later than the booked one. Anyway, so much for the background. Looking at the National Conditions of Carriage (Aug 2018). Part A along with B do not appear to form part of the actual contractual conditions Quote: "The terms and conditions of these National Rail Conditions of Travel are set out below in Part C to Part H (the “Conditions”). They comprise the binding contract that comes into effect between you and the Train Companies that provide scheduled rail services on the National Rail Network, when you purchase a Ticket." Is a summary and says: Quote: "If things go wrong we will, in the circumstances set out in this document below, refund your Ticket, pay you compensation, make sure you get home by another means of transport or provide you with overnight accommodation." So far so good and in B (not part of the binding contract) Quote: "When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you enter into a binding contract with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows you to use. The Conditions set out the rights and obligations of passengers and the Train Companies listed in Appendix A." and Quote: "Please note that neither a Train Company’s staff nor a Licensed Retailer’s staff has the authority to waive or change the Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to do so within the Conditions." So that's a bit confusing, we have a section that is not part of the binding T&Cs that says I've entered into a binding contract, which staff can't change.Anyway that's verging on the pedantic. The first potentially relevant Condition is 9.4 Quote: "Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty." That is only talking about the service after the one that is late, or that broke down, not what happens if the service is cancelled before or during a relevant leg. Then we have 11.2 (not strictly relevant but indicative). Quote: "If, as a result of a delay to your train, your Ticket expires during your journey, you will still be allowed to complete that journey without penalty." Then we come to 28.2 Quote: "Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide over,night accommodation for you." Clearly I was not able to complete the journey for which the ticket is valid as there was only one possible series of trains that comprised that valid journey. Which seems to put Cross Country in the frame here, as not fulfilling its obligations under 28.2 to get me to Glasgow, which it was not unreasonable for them to do. One last observation, Northern Rail and Cross Country are both subsidiaries of Arriva. Any thoughts? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 08/09/2018 at 09:45 #111991 | |
kbarber
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Peter Bennet in post 111975 said:OK,Barrack room lawyer alert. I suspect it depends how you define the journey. If it is the journey from A to B (however many changes there are en-route and however many different companies are involved), it might give a quite different conclusion from defining it as the exact trains and route for which a particular ticket was booked. I think it could be at least arguable that the specificity of routes & tickets are a means to an end (getting from A to B with a particular combination of time and cost), rather than the end in themselves. As I say, m'learned friends could have a lot of very expensive fun with this one. Log in to reply |
Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet) 10/09/2018 at 22:02 #112052 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
kbarber in post 111991 said:Given there are rules about combining tickets in a single journey, I can't see how they could claim otherwise and succeed. Log in to reply |