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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal.

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > Can I "talk" this train past the red signal.

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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 16:24 #121086
bugsy
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1766 posts 		Just a general query really.
In the attached screenshot, you can see train 1H01 at the red signaljust before the unlit one. Normally I wait for the driver to telephone, but was wondering if it waould be acceptable to just use the option in the train list to authorise him to pass the signal at danger.
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 17:14 #121090
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		bugsy in post 121086 said:
Just a general query really.
In the attached screenshot, you can see train 1H01 at the red signaljust before the unlit one. Normally I wait for the driver to telephone, but was wondering if it waould be acceptable to just use the option in the train list to authorise him to pass the signal at danger.

You can always say that the F2 option was use of CSR.

Kev
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 19:40 #121094
Banners88
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112 posts 		Think the option to warn the driver on an unlit signal ahead (after the red protecting it) should be an option when the driver / signaller makes contact via GSM-R.
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 21:06 #121095
TUT
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534 posts
Online 		Well in real life you would of course tell the driver that the next signal is not displaying any aspect, it's down in the rules that you must. But you cannot authorise the driver to pass both signals in one authority unless you've got temporary block working/emergency special working in place, so you'd have to authorise the driver to pass the unlit signal as well anyway. Assuming they stop at the signal of course.
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 21:22 #121096
GeoffM
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6376 posts 		bugsy in post 121086 said:
was wondering if it waould be acceptable to just use the option in the train list to authorise him to pass the signal at danger.
KymriskaDraken in post 121090 said:
You can always say that the F2 option was use of CSR.
Somewhat cheating when you're not supposed to call a driver unless you know he's at a stand, or it's an emergency.

In SimSig IIRC the driver will phone in at the unlit signal immediately instead of waiting.
SimSig Boss
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 21:59 #121098
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts 		GeoffM in post 121096 said:
bugsy in post 121086 said:
was wondering if it waould be acceptable to just use the option in the train list to authorise him to pass the signal at danger.
KymriskaDraken in post 121090 said:
You can always say that the F2 option was use of CSR.
Somewhat cheating when you're not supposed to call a driver unless you know he's at a stand, or it's an emergency.

In SimSig IIRC the driver will phone in at the unlit signal immediately instead of waiting.
IRL when you got the Driver on the phone at the red you'd tell him to call in immediately on arrival at the black signal.

In SimSig land, if he calls in immediately at the failed signal there isn't really much to be gained by "cheating" him past the red. I didn't know that SimSig did that though. You learn something new every day.

Kev

Kev
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 22:19 #121099
bugsy
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1766 posts 		GeoffM in post 121096 said:
bugsy in post 121086 said:
was wondering if it waould be acceptable to just use the option in the train list to authorise him to pass the signal at danger.
KymriskaDraken in post 121090 said:
You can always say that the F2 option was use of CSR.
Somewhat cheating when you're not supposed to call a driver unless you know he's at a stand, or it's an emergency.

In SimSig IIRC the driver will phone in at the unlit signal immediately instead of waiting.
In that case I'll do as I have been doing and wait for the phone call. Just thought that it might save a bit of time, but I don't want to cheat!
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 22:41 #121101
Late Turn
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699 posts 		GeoffM in post 121096 said:
bugsy in post 121086 said:
was wondering if it waould be acceptable to just use the option in the train list to authorise him to pass the signal at danger.
KymriskaDraken in post 121090 said:
You can always say that the F2 option was use of CSR.
Somewhat cheating when you're not supposed to call a driver unless you know he's at a stand, or it's an emergency.

In SimSig IIRC the driver will phone in at the unlit signal immediately instead of waiting.

Nowadays though, with GSM-R, the driver should send an 'SG' message straight away upon coming to a stand (unless there's an obvious reason for being stopped there) so the signalman can call him instead. Maybe simulating the "contact signaller" message (perhaps through the F2 menu) would be a solution, so that the driver calls in immediately instead of waiting?
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 22:47 #121102
TUT
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534 posts
Online 		Well a few things come to mind.

One is that you can send a 'contact signaller' text message on the GSM-R which should lead to the driving ringing in immediately if they're standing at a signal. So I think - as long as the train has actually stopped - bringing up F2 and instructing the driver to pass a signal at danger instead of waiting the 2 minutes for the phone call to come in is actually quite reasonable.

Another is that GSM-R allows the driver to send a 'standing at signal' text message to the signaller, which is rather akin to the message that you get in SimSig and which could be your prompt to 'call the driver up on the GSM-R'/bring up the F2 menu.

And the final thing is that Module S4 requires a driver to contact the signaller as soon as possible if they are detained at a signal on a running line 'unless they can see an obvious reason for the signal being at danger'. In this case, they wait up to 2 minutes, or whatever alternative may defined in the sectional appendix or on signs displayed on the telephone.

So again, I would tend to expect a pretty timely phone call in real life, rather than a full 2 minute wait each and every time, so I don't think F2 is cheating too much that being the case.

On the other hand, waiting 2 minutes can provide a proxy simulation for other things. In SimSig, you can authorise a driver to pass a signal at danger with a couple of clicks.

You try having this conversation in 2 seconds.

"Hello, Hademore Crossing signaller."

"Hello Hademore Crossing signaller, this is the driver of 1H01 standing at your HC102 signal at danger."

"Hello driver of 1H01. The reason HC102 signal is at danger is that the next signal, HC6, is unlit - it is not showing any aspect at all."

"Right, so the next signal, which is HC6 is unlit, it's not showing any aspect at the moment, and that's why I've been detained at HC102."

"That is correct driver. So, driver, due to HC6 being unable to display any aspect, I am unable to clear HC102 signal, please repeat this message back to me."

"Yep, so, due to HC6 signal being unable to display an aspect, you are unable to clear HC102 signal."

"That is correct driver. So, when authorised, I would like you to pass HC102 signal at danger, proceed cautiously through the section and bring your train to a stand at the next signal, HC6, which is not showing any aspect at present. Please repeat this message back to me."

"So, when authorised, you would like me to pass HC102 signal at danger, proceed cautiously through the section and then come to a stand at HC6, the next signal, which is unlit."

"That is correct driver, and if you could give me a call immediately when you arrive at HC6."

"I will call you immediately at HC6."

"Thank you very much driver, I am now authorising you, the driver of 1H01 to pass HC102 signal at danger."

"So you're authorising me, the driver of 1H01 to pass HC102 signal at danger."

"That is correct."

"Thanks very much."

"Cheers."
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 22:57 #121105
GeoffM
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6376 posts 		Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
SimSig Boss
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 16/10/2019 at 23:00 #121106
headshot119
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4869 posts 		TUT in post 121102 said:
Well a few things come to mind.

*snip*
Grade A comms sir!
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 08:03 #121110
clive
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2789 posts 		GeoffM in post 121105 said:
Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
Plus extra sighs when the signal clears just as you pick up the handset.
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 08:04 #121111
clive
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2789 posts 		headshot119 in post 121106 said:
TUT in post 121102 said:
Well a few things come to mind.

*snip*
Grade A comms sir!
Shouldn't it have been:

"Hello Hademore Crossing signaller, this is the driver of one hotel zero one standing at your hotel Charlie one zero two signal at danger."

?
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Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 08:58 #121113
kbarber
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1743 posts 		Of course, back in the day (and remember this sim has a layout dating back to the 1960s), it might sound more like:

"Hello Bobby, down Manchester stuck at your 102 peg."

"Pass that one at danger and call in as soon as you get to my number 6, it's a black signal so go careful."


  • "Cheers mate."

  • The latter phrase would probably only be added after dark or during fog or falling snow.

    Of course, the rules in those days also mandated waiting 2 minutes regardless of circumstances (I believe there were sectional appendix variations for some suburban areas). But th ephones were mostly one-way only, the signalman couldn't ring the driver so just had to sit it out until he phoned. He then had no control over the order he answered the phones in, if there were trains at every signal - the calls stacked up and were answered in order. I recall one morning when Seven Sisters had a signal failure; there were 5 or 6 trains in the stretch from Bury Street and the calls were being presented in reverse order, so the signalman had to answer 4 or 5 drivers before he could authorise the one he wanted to pass a failed signal, then found himself repeating the process 3 or 4 times before the signal cleared for the next in the queue. I signed the book, watched for a few minutes to make sure I wasn't needed, then cleared off - the last thing the Bobby needed that day was 'company' in the box!
    •
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 11:22 #121116
    KymriskaDraken
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    963 posts     		clive in post 121110 said:
    GeoffM in post 121105 said:
    Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

    We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
    Plus extra sighs when the signal clears just as you pick up the handset.
    Every Driver knows that signals are equipped with a pressure pad which clears the signal as soon as the Driver gets to the SPT.

    Kev
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 11:25 #121117
    KymriskaDraken
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    963 posts     		kbarber in post 121113 said:
    Of course, back in the day (and remember this sim has a layout dating back to the 1960s), it might sound more like:

    "Hello Bobby, down Manchester stuck at your 102 peg."

    "Pass that one at danger and call in as soon as you get to my number 6, it's a black signal so go careful."


  • "Cheers mate."

  • The latter phrase would probably only be added after dark or during fog or falling snow.

    • That's pretty much what happened at Little Mill and Bristol in the mid 1990s.

    Kev
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 15:48 #121123
    jc92
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    3689 posts     		KymriskaDraken in post 121116 said:
    clive in post 121110 said:
    GeoffM in post 121105 said:
    Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

    We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
    Plus extra sighs when the signal clears just as you pick up the handset.
    Every Driver knows that signals are equipped with a pressure pad which clears the signal as soon as the Driver gets to the SPT.

    Kev
    Approach control if you will.
    "We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 16:36 #121125
    Phil-jmw
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    675 posts     		jc92 in post 121123 said:
    KymriskaDraken in post 121116 said:
    clive in post 121110 said:
    GeoffM in post 121105 said:
    Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

    We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
    Plus extra sighs when the signal clears just as you pick up the handset.
    Every Driver knows that signals are equipped with a pressure pad which clears the signal as soon as the Driver gets to the SPT.

    Kev
    Approach control if you will.
    We knew it as TCB - Track Circuit Ballast - in Derby box. At least that's what some drivers must have thought it must be when they stood on it as they got out of the cab to go on the SPT and the signal came off.
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 19:17 #121132
    Late Turn
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    699 posts     		KymriskaDraken in post 121116 said:
    clive in post 121110 said:
    GeoffM in post 121105 said:
    Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

    We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
    Plus extra sighs when the signal clears just as you pick up the handset.
    Every Driver knows that signals are equipped with a pressure pad which clears the signal as soon as the Driver gets to the SPT.

    Kev

    Technology’s not changed much there. Now, you sit there for a minute or two, sigh, hover a finger over the ‘SG’ button, give it a few more seconds, then go for it. Just as you reach the point of no return, too late to stop yourself pressing it, the signal clears.

    Followed ten minutes later by “wait”!
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 17/10/2019 at 22:48 #121141
    chrisdmadd
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    242 posts     		Late Turn in post 121132 said:
    KymriskaDraken in post 121116 said:
    clive in post 121110 said:
    GeoffM in post 121105 said:
    Indeed TUT, and to add one more:

    We don't really distinguish between SPT, CSR, NRN, GSM-R, pigeon carrier, or Amazon Prime. Back in the old days it wouldn't be unusual for a driver to give it a moment before sighing, putting on his/her orange jacket, telling the guard the situation, clambering down, and stumbling along the ballast to the SPT. Add more time if raining and extra sighing.
    Plus extra sighs when the signal clears just as you pick up the handset.
    Every Driver knows that signals are equipped with a pressure pad which clears the signal as soon as the Driver gets to the SPT.

    Kev

    Technology’s not changed much there. Now, you sit there for a minute or two, sigh, hover a finger over the ‘SG’ button, give it a few more seconds, then go for it. Just as you reach the point of no return, too late to stop yourself pressing it, the signal clears.

    Followed ten minutes later by “wait”!

    haha this is so funny as it is so very true. Every time i get that wait message as i sail through the now cleared signal i think he/shes having a laugh.

    I also call the SG button the 'Signal Green' button.
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 18/10/2019 at 04:40 #121148
    Giantray
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    347 posts     		There does seem to be a delay on GSM-R messages. I, as a Signaller, have often cleared a signal and 30 + seconds later gotten a standing at signal message, so I guess the delay in message sent and being received works the other way too.
    Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amateur wannabees!
    Last edited: 18/10/2019 at 04:46 by Giantray
    Reason: None given
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 19/10/2019 at 17:00 #121181
    Izzy
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    44 posts     		The quick answer is yes, you can.

    If you as a signlman know that you are going to talk a train past, and all conditions are met, there is nothing stopping you from telling the driver to pass at caution etc. For this reason the SPT (signal post telephone) can be rung from the signal box (in most places, but not all). If the train comes to a stand and the phone is ringing, it's a no brainer that the driver needs to talk to the signalman. Even in this day and age :)

    This is getting rarer and rarer though, because of CSR, GSM-R etc. A lot of the time the driver will already know what to do, or that he needs to contact the signalman.

    But the absolute rule is still that after being detained for 2 minutes, the driver contacts the signalman, end of story. There are just common sense ways to speed it up a bit.

    In the exact case you have shown..................it is necessary for the driver to be cautioned past the red signal to a blank signal. So it would be expected that the train is going to stop at the signal in rear. If the signalman is watching the panel closely, he could give it about 2 minutes or so and then start to ring the signal held at danger to save the driver sitting for a couple of minutes first. It may only save a minute or two, but it can all add up. And you can't talk past more than one signal at a time these days - so the quicker you can tell the driver what is happening, the less delay will occur - especially if he knows that he needs to phone up straight away from the blank signal (which doesn't happen in SimSig, but nothing is perfect (just close)).

    Happy SimSigging
    Last edited: 19/10/2019 at 17:09 by Izzy
    Reason: I type too fast :)
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 19/10/2019 at 17:55 #121184
    bugsy
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    1766 posts     		Thanks for all the replies and guidance. This situation probably wouldn't occur very often and there's usually time to wait for the phone call from the driver. However, as you can see from my original screenshot, there's another train in the queue, so being able to speed things up a bit would reduce any delays.

    Thanks again
    Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 19/10/2019 at 18:04 #121185
    TUT
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    534 posts
    Online     		Remember when it comes to 1C94 that, before you can authorise the driver to approach the blank signal, you must have told the driver about the defect and the line must be clear up to and including the overlap of the next working stop signal (LD101)
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    Can I "talk" this train past the red signal. 19/10/2019 at 22:38 #121195
    bugsy
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    1766 posts     		TUT in post 121185 said:
    Remember when it comes to 1C94 that, before you can authorise the driver to approach the blank signal, you must have told the driver about the defect and the line must be clear up to and including the overlap of the next working stop signal (LD101)
    Ok, got that. Thanks.
    Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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