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West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 11/06/2020 at 23:00 #127492 | |
DavidSplett
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West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable has been submitted. Represents a full weekday 0300 to 0300 for West Hampstead, note this is the WTT not the Covid emergency timetable. All GTR & EMR services are as per the LTP diagrams. Freight is as per WTT with formations nominal. The following operating restriction apply:- 1) Four-tracking between Bedford North Junction and Sharnbrook is not included on the simulator. This will need to be worked around as necessary. 2) Bedford Jowett Sidings are not included on the simulator. Workaround is to use Bedford Yard instead, trains entering / leaving will need to use the special class 700 profile which included diesel traction. Note that if a changeover takes place then the train will not route due to traction discrepancy. 3) Sundon Up Loop is not included on the simulator. This will need to be worked around as necessary. 4) Luton platform 2 cannot handle a 12-car train. This will need to be worked around if necessary. 5) Cricklewood South Sidings are not included on the simulator. The timetable uses Cricklewood Depot and Cricklewood Sidings instead. The entire layout at Cricklewood has changed since the simulator was created, this timetable attempts to make the timetable fit this outdated layout as far as possible, however some alterations have been necessary to make it work. 6) Canal Tunnels are not included on the simulator, therefore the timetable omits all Thameslink services to/from Finsbury Park. Timetable has been tested and all known issues addressed. Please feel free to post on this thread should anything further be discovered, or any suggestions for enhancements. A further note of thanks to those who assisted providing some of the information, specifically unit diagrams. As well as making writing the timetable rather easier and more systematic, this has also helped to ensure accuracy. Enjoy! Last edited: 11/06/2020 at 23:02 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: bossman, John, andyallen4014, ajax103, Airvan00, BarryM |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 13/06/2020 at 09:25 #127517 | |
mfloyd
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Hi David, Appears that your freight workings have a passing time rather than a depart time at locations they should be held at. Using work around of holding them when they call in. Only up to 0352 but its the case with all of them. Lovely TT tho, I really enjoy the W Hampstead ones! Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 13/06/2020 at 11:04 #127519 | |
DavidSplett
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mfloyd in post 127517 said:Hi David,This was a bit of a deliberate decision with the objective of expediting early running, however point taken about the phones ringing in! I’m happy to throw this one out to the floor, if the general feeling is this is undesirable then I’m certainly up for changing it. I’ve tended to do same with ECS passenger moves too. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mfloyd |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 13/06/2020 at 15:01 #127526 | |
tjtbcork
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DavidSplett in post 127519 said:mfloyd in post 127517 said:I treat the phone call as the driver ringing in to say he can leave early if I want him to. Gives you the option of holding him or sending him early. Gives flexibility.Hi David,This was a bit of a deliberate decision with the objective of expediting early running, however point taken about the phones ringing in! I’m happy to throw this one out to the floor, if the general feeling is this is undesirable then I’m certainly up for changing it. I’ve tended to do same with ECS passenger moves too. Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 13/06/2020 at 16:57 #127530 | |
jc92
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I always prefer a stopping time set as 13:05 13/30 (ie with a passing time ticked) as I get the option to run the train early without it stopping or needing interference, however equally I can see the booked time its due to be held until should I wish to do.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 14/06/2020 at 11:13 #127559 | |
Andrew G
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The downside of using a passing time is where the booked departure time is more than 15 minutes away as you don't get the wait until booked time option. This can lead to multiple phone calls. Although this isn't an ARS simulation the other side effect on those simulations is the risk that ARS will set a route early unless you have intervened in some way. Suspect you will have mixed views on this - although my personal preference is not to have passing time ticked and maybe use set down only to increase the chance of the train being ready sooner. However, not a show stopper and I sometimes will just amend the timetable if I want to hold an early train. Thanks for the WTT. Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 14/06/2020 at 15:23 #127565 | |
DavidSplett
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Andrew G in post 127559 said:The downside of using a passing time is where the booked departure time is more than 15 minutes away as you don't get the wait until booked time option. This can lead to multiple phone calls.I can see there's mixed opinions on this, and no solution seems perfect. I wonder if there's scope for a new tick in the timetable editor, such as "train booked to stand" where it will non-stop if signals are clear, or wait time before calling up if signals are on. I thought the ticking passing time along with an arrival time was intended to achieve that, but clearly its not ideal if phones are ringing constantly. I dislike using the "d" tick box as it still causes the train to stop, and feels like too much of a bodge. Perhaps I'm just a bit too perfectionist on this! Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 14/06/2020 at 18:27 #127569 | |
Meld
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DavidSplett in post 127565 said:Perhaps I'm just a bit too perfectionist on this!In that case theres no need for any discussion about Freight Schedules - NR only used arr/dep for a stopping location, so to be perfect thats all there should be. If a freight does phone up to depart early, the signaller takes the risk by letting it go early, in most cases stops are planned for a reason that may not be noticeable within the immediate area of control Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 15/06/2020 at 10:17 #127579 | |
kbarber
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Meld in post 127569 said:DavidSplett in post 127565 said:There was a time when 'freight' and 'schedule' would never have been seen in the same sentence, let-alone 'perfection'.Perhaps I'm just a bit too perfectionist on this!In that case theres no need for any discussion about Freight Schedules - NR only used arr/dep for a stopping location, so to be perfect thats all there should be. Back in the day, a bobby (or a box supervisor once powerboxes came in) would usually get rid of any freight that was ready early. Of course, they'd have an idea what they'd already sent, and thus what loops were likely to have been used to put a train inside. Any qualms on that score would be settled with a quick phone call. And the bobby down the line would be doing the same of course, getting loops cleared as quickly as possible so there was room for the next early runner. Remember, also, that these would be people who worked together regularly. A signalman would know what to expect of their mate (whether the cautious 'booked route, booked order' type or the ones who would just keep pulling off regardless of margins) and be ready accordingly. Mostly, of course, people quickly gained experience and were able to keep things flowing regardless of the timetable. Only occasionally did it go wrong. Which led to the story I heard (told by another) from the GN Main Line, before resignalling, where they were known for being bold with their regulating. Just occasionally things went wrong, whereupon a District Inspector would be dispatched to give a suitable roasting. So one of the bolder men (I'll call him Jack, because that wasn't his name) got things spectacularly wrong one day, and an express got badly hammered. The following week he was on late turn when boots crunched on the 'box steps and the DI entered. "I suppose you know why I'm here, Jack?" he said. "Er yes, guv, I suppose I do." "That's alright then. Is the kettle on?" Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 15/06/2020 at 19:08 #127588 | |
DavidSplett
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Meld in post 127569 said:DavidSplett in post 127565 said:Some fair points here. I’m presuming that under scenarios other than easy freights are allowed to run early anyway?Perhaps I'm just a bit too perfectionist on this!In that case theres no need for any discussion about Freight Schedules - NR only used arr/dep for a stopping location, so to be perfect thats all there should be. It’s the enforced stop for no reason which bugs me slightly, especially if one is trying to thread a freight through quickly to get it out the way of something. Reading through the timetable writing tutorial, it does seem to imply that the XX:XX XX/XX notation is the “correct” format for this, but someone upthread commented that this would cause issues on an ARS sim. I wonder if Geoff et al could give some “official” thoughts on this? Last edited: 15/06/2020 at 19:18 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 16/06/2020 at 12:46 #127600 | |
Steamer
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DavidSplett in post 127588 said:It isn't official, but it's relatively common. Ultimately, it's up to you as the TT writer to make the decision on how to show it. Either way, some users will be editing the timetables- either to force a phone call when they've looped a train, or to prevent the train stopping if they've given it a clear run. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 16/06/2020 at 13:15 #127602 | |
DavidSplett
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Steamer in post 127600 said:DavidSplett in post 127588 said:Thanks for these thoughts. I have to admit I’m a little unsure of exactly how Simsig works in respect of early running.It isn't official, but it's relatively common. My understanding, subject to any correction, is: * In easy mode a freight will enter on time, in any mode it will depart early from a timing point but will stop first? * For a class 3 or class 5 ECS the sim will make a random decision whether it will run early or not, with the signaller having to rely on TRTS where provided? Is my understanding on the right lines? I’ve certainly had freights wait time when there isn’t a passing time ticked, which is what confuses me slightly. I’m presuming therefore that it’s slightly more complex than I have theorised above. Is it actually the case that freights may wait time on at a random proportion of occasions if no passing time is ticked? Personally I see no reason for freights to wait time unless the crew change box is ticked. It does seem as though a solution to please all would be if the “wait until booked time before calling back” option could be provided when a passing time is specified. This would avoid the unrealistic scenario of multiple phone calls. Hope I haven’t opened up too much of a can or worms?! Last edited: 16/06/2020 at 13:36 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 16/06/2020 at 13:33 #127603 | |
postal
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DavidSplett in post 127602 said:My understanding, subject to any correction, is:As far as I can remember, Cl. 0/1/2/5 wait for time while other classes are free to roll whenever any other limiting factors (joins/splits/crew changes/dwell times etc.) have played out. The waiting for time for the Cl. 0/1/2/5 can be over-ridden by checking the "set-down only" box but that only gives the core code permission to start the train early. Even with the box checked, the train may still be held until booked time on a random but comparatively rare basis. Cl.3/4/6/7/8 may also be held until due time on the same random basis even though they are not definitively held until due time. I can't off the top of my head remember what happens to Cl. 9 now as some passenger services carry those headcodes. Like you mentioned earlier, it is all about personal preference. I much prefer the defined stop and start times for freights rather than the ticked passing time which does not provide enough control for me. On non-ARS sims if you wish to let a freight run with the start and stop listed you can go into F2, go to the train's TT and set the current/next location to the location after the stop after which the train rolls on quite merrily with no signaller intervention. You can also do that with late running passenger services if you wish to take the Control decision to skip stops to get the train back to time. Can't remember whether that works under ARS. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 16/06/2020 at 13:35 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 16/06/2020 at 13:49 #127604 | |
DavidSplett
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postal in post 127603 said:DavidSplett in post 127602 said:Interesting, certainly seems there’s differences of opinion. Personally I’d prefer simply to note the arrival and departure times, but I’m not keen on the idea of there being an element of randomness as to whether the train will run early or not. I can’t see what purpose that would serve, as no driver is going to just sit on a clear signal. There’s the crew change tickbox to cover the particular scenario when a train would have to wait time for that reason, and it’s presence in the timetable allows the signaller to make an informed choice.My understanding, subject to any correction, is:As far as I can remember, Cl. 0/1/2/5 wait for time while other classes are free to roll whenever any other limiting factors (joins/splits/crew changes/dwell times etc.) have played out. The waiting for time for the Cl. 0/1/2/5 can be over-ridden by checking the "set-down only" box but that only gives the core code permission to start the train early. Even with the box checked, the train may still be held until booked time on a random but comparatively rare basis. Cl.3/4/6/7/8 may also be held until due time on the same random basis even though they are not definitively held until due time. I can't off the top of my head remember what happens to Cl. 9 now as some passenger services carry those headcodes. Personally I don’t like using F2 edits in a sim for signalling issues, preferring to only use it for “control” decisions like turning a train short or missing stops. Indeed I ran through my test-run on West Hampstead without touching F2 at all - admittedly on easy mode for testing purposes. No doubt this is very much personal preference! It does sound like there’s scope for debate and discussion on all this... Last edited: 16/06/2020 at 13:51 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 16/06/2020 at 15:52 #127606 | |
jc92
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There's no right or official answer. Like many things with timetabling, there's multiple ways to do it based on the authors opinion. Take dwell times for instance, you can either set a dwell time or use a rule to enforce it. Both work just fine, although sometimes I like to use a rule so that the tt popup doesn't show a dwell time has been set where the signaller may not be aware of it. Id do what you think is right as its your timetable ultimately. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 16/06/2020 at 18:35 #127611 | |
GeoffM
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For ARS: - If a departure time is marked as passing then any wait for time rules will be ignored, subject to usual regulation strategies. Thus, if a train is scheduled to be looped, and the departure time from the loop is a passing time, and it's scheduled to be passed by another train, and both are on time, then theoretically the looped train will be held for the other to pass. - Set down only (with a stop, not a passing time) is treated as if the train will leave at the booked time, not early. - Crew changes are unknown to ARS, just like real life. It's up to you, as a signaller, to either stop ARS setting route before the train is ready, or to set route if the train is ready but ARS is not expecting it to depart yet. For the train itself: - If a departure time is marked as passing then it won't stop (subject to signals, of course). - Set down only is random whether it waits for time or leaves early (minimum of the station stop time, up to the departure time). Crew changes were, of course, a more recent addition. But we still have to cater for older timetables (in terms of when they were written in SimSig, not the era they represent), so in the past crew changes were simulated by use of set down only. Slightly longer term plans do include consolidating set down only / must wait booked time and other options into a better system. It will, of course, be backward compatible. Though I have ideas, I've not fleshed them out yet so don't quiz me on it. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, BarryM, DavidSplett |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 17/06/2020 at 08:37 #127634 | |
Jan
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GeoffM in post 127611 said:For ARS:Provided of course the overtaking train has already appeared on a train describer somewhere by the time ARS starts thinking about setting the route out of the loop. So loops situated shortly beyond a sim fringe are a bit critical in that regard and wouldn't necessarily work well with passing times for the overtaken train. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 17/06/2020 at 09:31 #127636 | |
GeoffM
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Jan in post 127634 said:GeoffM in post 127611 said:True to life then, you're saying.For ARS:Provided of course the overtaking train has already appeared on a train describer somewhere by the time ARS starts thinking about setting the route out of the loop. So loops situated shortly beyond a sim fringe are a bit critical in that regard and wouldn't necessarily work well with passing times for the overtaken train. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 17/06/2020 at 10:00 #127637 | |
kbarber
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DavidSplett in post 127604 said:I think it's called 'overtime'... running early increases the chances of getting home on time, whereas running to time increases the possibility you might get put inside somewhere and... oh dear... an hour late off duty. Log in to reply |
West Hampstead 2020 summer MF timetable submitted 17/06/2020 at 14:02 #127638 | |
DavidSplett
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Many thanks to everyone who’s given their thoughts, and to Geoff for clarifying a few things. On balance I’m erring towards leaving things as they are, on the basis that the xx:xx xx/xx way of doing it seems to be the only one which doesn’t involve an element of randomness, which is something I prefer to avoid as it prevents the signaller making an informed choice about how to do things (part of the fun of SimSig is having the freedom to do things one’s own way if desired and *not* having to worry about a session with a manager if one messes up a regulating decision!). Likewise if as Geoff alludes to this is something which may change in the future to something better then it can be revisited again at that time, ultimately it isn’t a massive issue to modify the timetable in the future as we’re only talking about freight paths which only represent a small proportion of the whole timetable. The same will apply to King’s Cross timetables where the same issues apply. Fortunately neither are ARS sims. Last edited: 17/06/2020 at 14:02 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |