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| 'Offering on' to the next box 07/07/2020 at 18:24 #129221 | |
Steamer
3985 posts 
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While reading one of the L&YR signalbox books (well recommended, by the way- the range must have over a hundred box diagrams), I noted that in a lot of areas, there were long stretches where the section signal of one box had the next box's distant underneath it. What was the procedure for 'offering on' in areas like this? Offering on receipt of TES from the box in rear would result in the train being checked, but offering on immediately could lock up the line for miles ahead of an approaching train. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 07/07/2020 at 18:51 #129224 | |
jc92
3689 posts |
Sometimes it's defined in the SBSI's, including 1-2-1 being authorised where appropriate, otherwise you'd offer on on immediately, but bear in mind the box in advance doesn't have to accept if he knows he has a conflicting move. A train could be offered and refused for say 10 minutes before finally being accepted once any conflicting moves have been resolved. edit: for example a train departs Victoria northbound, Collyhurst street receives the description and offers straight on to Miles Platting who offers to Brewery Sdgs who offers to Thorpes Bridge who offers to Newton Heath who offers to Middleton Jcn etc. However Brewery Sdgs knows he has a train booked in front of it from Phillips Park so refuses it due to clearing point conflict, and then accepts it as soon as the conflicting move passes, then continues offering on Thorpes Bridge etc. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 07/07/2020 at 18:57 by jc92 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 07/07/2020 at 23:59 #129253 | |
Phil-jmw
675 posts |
Steamer in post 129221 said:While reading one of the L&YR signalbox books (well recommended, by the way- the range must have over a hundred box diagrams), I noted that in a lot of areas, there were long stretches where the section signal of one box had the next box's distant underneath it.In the short mile and a half with 7 SB's and gate boxes between Southport Station and Eastbourne Road (Crescent Road AHB LC on the Sandhills sim), when all the distant signals still worked before being made 'fixed' trains were offered on to be able to get all the slotted distants off (bear in mind that Duke St between Birkdale and Southport was also a block post before being downgraded to a crossing, I believe, in the mid-late 60's). An old hand signalman at Birkdale once told me that if an Up and a Down train approached together at just the right time, as all the boxes apart from Southport Station and Southport South controlled level crossings Southport was cut in two from Eastbank St bridge (between Portland St LC and Southport) and Hillside Station bridge. Birkdale even had Inner and Outer Distant's in the Up direction, located beneath Aughton Road's and Duke St's Up Home signals respectively. In connection with the close spacing of L&Y boxes, I once read that the LYR had more signals per mile than any other pre-grouping railway company, which is not surprising given the heavily industrial nature of much of its geography. Last edited: 08/07/2020 at 00:07 by Phil-jmw Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 08/07/2020 at 00:26 #129255 | |
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jc92
3689 posts |
I've certainly been advised of some very "interesting" practices regarding the working of block instruments on the ex Merseyrail portion of the L&Y given the short sections and frequent services...
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 08/07/2020 at 00:39 #129256 | |
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Phil-jmw
675 posts |
jc92 in post 129255 said:I've certainly been advised of some very "interesting" practices regarding the working of block instruments on the ex Merseyrail portion of the L&Y given the short sections and frequent services...Known as 'Mersey Block'. The 1977 Hall Road accident report makes interesting reading. Mix loose working, free block and and a regular, frequent train service and it was an accident waiting to happen. Last edited: 08/07/2020 at 00:43 by Phil-jmw Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 08/07/2020 at 02:25 #129262 | |
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whatlep
377 posts |
jc92 in post 129255 said:I've certainly been advised of some very "interesting" practices regarding the working of block instruments on the ex Merseyrail portion of the L&Y given the short sections and frequent services...Presumably similar to those responsible for the accident at Irk Valley Jn on the Manchester-Bury electric route in 1953? http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=395 Last edited: 08/07/2020 at 02:27 by whatlep Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 08/07/2020 at 02:29 #129263 | |
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jc92
3689 posts |
Irk Valley was knock for knock block which is slightly different, along with a complete disregard for clearing points. Mersey block essentially involves leaving the block at line clear normally and in some cases allowing the block to be brought to TOL by the occupancy of the berth track circuit where TES may or may not be acknowledged. I've also heard of the block being left at LC all day, going to TOL with TC occupancy then reverting to LC immediately without the commutator being worked at all with bells being used almost as a sideshow and for routing codes. as Phil says with the benefit of hindsight its asking for trouble. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 08/07/2020 at 02:33 by jc92 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: whatlep |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 08/07/2020 at 09:18 #129270 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Back to the original question, it would be a judicious mix of (in old money) Block Reg 1(e) (offer forward as soon as you get the call), 1(f) (train approaching) and various local provisions. If you're working 1(e), you simply offer a train forward as soon as it's offered to you. There is nothing in the regulations to say you have to accept it before offering forward. So Brent No. 1, for instance, getting a 4-beat offered up the fast from Hendon, could (in fact should) offer it forward immediately even though he refuses it because of a shunt from Brent No. 2 to the Loaded Wagon Sidings. The most common way of working Reg 1(f) is that you offer forward when you receive Train Approaching (1-2-1) and you send 1-2-1 when you get TES. But that was far from universal and the procedure would always be laid down in the SBSIs. I believe it was fairly common to send 1-2-1 forward on receipt. I'm told one of the most curious uses was at Exeter, where a box some way back (Cullompton?) would initiate 1-2-1 for down expresses and it would immediately be passed forward as far as Exeter West before the train was even offered. Of course, if you think about it, if you're the first box on a stretch using 1-2-1 you have to work 1(e) so you have someone to send 1-2-1 to. I've written before about the 'overland bell' between Hendon and Finchley Road. I have a bit of a suspicion this was a Midland practice, but not enough experience to know whether it was more widespread. Briefly, there was a longish section from Elstree to Hendon, divided by IBs at Mill Hill. There was then a succession of very short sections to Finchley Road, where the fast and local lines converged to pass through Belsize Tunnel. (If you look at the West Hampstead sim, the fast lines now use what used to be the goods lines tunnel.) Finchley Road homes were very close to the convergence. There were slotted distants all along that stretch, under the homes as well as the starters; in fact Finchley Road outer distant also slotted West Hampstead distants, which were back at Watling Street. Working from Hendon to Finchley Rd was 1(e), but Finchley would intially refuse when he got the call from West Hampstead (by this time the train was only just into Elstree Tunnel, and there was probably a down stopper to send local line and a set of cars due up the local from Cricklewood to St Pancras, with plenty of time to pass both). When the train passed Hendon, as well as sending TES to Brent 1, he sent its description on the overland bell, which sounded in all boxes to Finchley Road. (There was no call attention on the overland bell, and it was acknowledged by 1 beat from Finchley, which didn't sound in the intermediate boxes; in fact, when there was a train recorder on duty at Finchley it was his job to acknowledge the overland bell and there was a plunger above the desk for that purpose.) The overland bell was Finchley Road's cue to accept from West Hampstead and offer forward to Carlton Road. Happy days... Things were done very differently on the Great Northern. 1(e) working was normal for long stretches. By the mid-1960s (and as early as the late '20s in some places) there were stretches of automatic signalling, with trains described by block bell only as they passed the box at the start of the auto section. The usual procedure was that trains would be offered under 1(e) as far as the box at the beginning of one of those auto stretches. The box at the far end would then initiate the offer for the next stretch of 1(e) working on receiving the description. There's basically no-one left who knew how 'twas done before those auto sections were installed so we can only speculate; there is a suspicion it relied on signalmens' knowledge of the running of trains, which in turn relied on the single-needle telegraph. (There is some circumstantial support for that view; the single-needle remained in use for reporting running of trains on the GN as late as the early 1970s, and was in fact considered an indispensable tool right up until Kings X powerbox was commissioned with its train describers.) Log in to reply |
| 'Offering on' to the next box 08/07/2020 at 12:52 #129275 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts
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Thanks for all the replies, interesting stuff. kbarber in post 129270 said: I'm told one of the most curious uses was at Exeter, where a box some way back (Cullompton?) would initiate 1-2-1 for down expresses and it would immediately be passed forward as far as Exeter West before the train was even offered.Indeed- and all simulated in Blockpost Software's Exeter West simulation. Presumably to get a clear road right the way through the station area; West has a number of instructions to be followed if an express can't be given a clear run. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |