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| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 11:30 #135607 | |
mjkerr
195 posts |
I have just experienced a freight train that was looped in the WTT, but did not require it As a result the train contacted to advise of adverse route Is there any way to include an option to ignore the loop? DELETED Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 12:46 #135613 | |
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Albert
1315 posts |
For many loops you can right-click the train in F2 and tell it to skip the next station. This only works if the loop is actually the train's next location (at the top of the timetable box when you click the train). Assuming that you're talking about Carlisle sim: it is somewhat inconsistent here. Some loops can be passed this way, others will generate a phonecall regardless. AJP in games Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 13:05 #135614 | |
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Dionysusnu
577 posts |
What is often done is to enter an arrival and departure time, but still tick the "pass" box. This allows the train to bypass the loop, while still keeping the planned timings in the timetable.
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| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 13:35 #135617 | |
jc92
3687 posts |
Dionysusnu in post 135614 said:What is often done is to enter an arrival and departure time, but still tick the "pass" box. This allows the train to bypass the loop, while still keeping the planned timings in the timetable.Yes and no. If the loop and mainline are the same timetable location with separate "platforms" this will work, but if the loop is its own unique timing point with wrong route code defined, the driver will still want to pass through the loop. Some of the loops on Carlisle are the former, eg looping a train at penrith, and some are the latter, eg eden Valley GL. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 14:00 #135619 | |
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Albert
1315 posts |
And then it is also possible that neither the main line location nor the wrong route are coded. I reported before that this happens on Shap UGL.
AJP in games Log in to reply The following user said thank you: jc92 |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 15:18 #135621 | |
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mjkerr
195 posts |
Albert in post 135613 said:Assuming that you're talking about Carlisle sim: it is somewhat inconsistent here. Some loops can be passed this way, others will generate a phonecall regardless 4M70 (Cl 86/4 Cl 87/0 X 2 FLT 449m) It is looped at Kingmoor Up Loop in the WTT, where it sits for 15 minutes I assumed this is due to congestion at Carlisle station (use P4 or P3 only) and to allow 1M15 to pass However 4M70 then passes at Carlisle station 4M70 can then proceed all the way to Shap Summit, and be passed there instead I suspect it is an error in the WTT as there is no congestion and no need to pass 1M15 at Carlisle However, it does need to lose 15 minutes before Carnforth, otherwise 1M15 will never pass! DELETED Last edited: 30/12/2020 at 15:25 by mjkerr Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 16:01 #135628 | |
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Albert
1315 posts |
That's entirely up to you as signaller - if the train doesn't have any planned crew changes. If there is a crew change you may want to loop it regardless to avoid blocking a line while waiting for crew (as long freights can overhang points at the north end of Carlisle!)
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| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 16:05 #135629 | |
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Dionysusnu
577 posts |
This is also a decision you make as a timetable writer. Do you fix WTT errors, or keep them in for consistency's sake. There's no right answer to that, it's a personal preference.
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| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 16:40 #135638 | |
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jc92
3687 posts |
Its not a timetable error. Its how the trains been booked to work. As a signaller if you think of a better way, you're entitled to run it early, but I wouldn't alter the booked working.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 22:56 #135672 | |
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mjkerr
195 posts |
Dionysusnu in post 135629 said:This is also a decision you make as a timetable writer. Do you fix WTT errors, or keep them in for consistency's sake. There's no right answer to that, it's a personal preference I have now worked out the WTT requires the loop to be used ThO and this is missing from the header DELETED Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 30/12/2020 at 23:40 #135674 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
It is unlikely that the WTT bothers with making a variant 'not looping' for a THO or Y or Q train, if something might run the freight is timed to be looped.
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| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 01:32 #135677 | |
kaiwhara
587 posts |
jc92 in post 135617 said:My question is, given a train being timed into a loop is only for planning purposes if everything is spot on time with no cancellations etc, given that bypassing a loop is a perfectly legitimate operational option if the circumstances permit it (following higher speed train cancelled), why on earth would any of them need wrong route code? Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 01:36 #135678 | |
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Chromatix
190 posts |
As well as crew changes, freight crews might be rostered to take en-route breaks to avoid fatigue, where passenger crews would normally take them at a station while their relief takes the train forward. That could easily account for a 15-minute pause in a loop appearing in the WTT, and the driver would rightly call up to complain if it looked like he was going to miss his break!
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| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 01:43 #135679 | |
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jc92
3687 posts |
kaiwhara in post 135677 said:jc92 in post 135617 said:If the loop is a separate timetabled location to the mainline, bypassing it without questioning the route will prevent the timetable from stepping to the next location with the inevitable problems that causes.My question is, given a train being timed into a loop is only for planning purposes if everything is spot on time with no cancellations etc, given that bypassing a loop is a perfectly legitimate operational option if the circumstances permit it (following higher speed train cancelled), why on earth would any of them need wrong route code? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 02:02 #135680 | |
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kaiwhara
587 posts |
jc92 in post 135679 said:That isn't correct. There is a way to allow the timetable to step through a location it can't call at within the Editor. I'm actually testing a sim where this actually happens at the moment, and the mainline is not listed as the loop location in question. It can definitely be done. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 02:06 #135681 | |
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kaiwhara
587 posts |
Chromatix in post 135678 said:As well as crew changes, freight crews might be rostered to take en-route breaks to avoid fatigue, where passenger crews would normally take them at a station while their relief takes the train forward. That could easily account for a 15-minute pause in a loop appearing in the WTT, and the driver would rightly call up to complain if it looked like he was going to miss his break!That is a very legitimate point, however, I would expect in reality (and as is certainly my experience on the real railway), that these can be moved around by agreement to suit operational needs at the time. If the train is for example running early, the driver may not actually be due a break yet so this could be arranged easily to occur further down the line. However, we do need to keep in mind whether we are providing a Signalling Simulation vs a Train or Route Control simulation. I believe we are more alligned to the former, in which case usually, drivers meal relief isn't usually a signallers problem - I would expect that would be something they would take instruction from Train Control or Route Control, depending which country you are in. Wrong Route Code should in practice only be used in a "can't get there from here" scenario. Bypassing a loop isn't (IMO) a situation where wrong route code is either justified or should be provided. If you can't reach a station where the punters might want to get off, that's a different scenario. Victoria Eastern illustrates that example quite clearly. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Last edited: 31/12/2020 at 02:07 by kaiwhara Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 07:44 #135692 | |
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mjkerr
195 posts |
Chromatix in post 135678 said:As well as crew changes, freight crews might be rostered to take en-route breaks to avoid fatigue, where passenger crews would normally take them at a station while their relief takes the train forward. That could easily account for a 15-minute pause in a loop appearing in the WTT, and the driver would rightly call up to complain if it looked like he was going to miss his break! Yes, I also considered that Seems strange to use Kingmoor Up Loop rather than the yard itself Equally, there is a Crew Change at Carlisle This suggests the crew travel north, swapover then run out of hours before reaching Carlisle DELETED Last edited: 31/12/2020 at 11:47 by mjkerr Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 08:10 #135693 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
There are various options open to the developer. At its simplest the main line is coded with the loop TIPLOC, but that still means the train will stop. However, the method I've used is to force the timetable to step up once the train has passed the point of divergence. That principle is also used on Cowlairs and CSCOT to allow trains to take various alternative routes. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Option to ingore loop 31/12/2020 at 09:45 #135695 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Chromatix in post 135678 said:As well as crew changes, freight crews might be rostered to take en-route breaks to avoid fatigue, where passenger crews would normally take them at a station while their relief takes the train forward. That could easily account for a 15-minute pause in a loop appearing in the WTT, and the driver would rightly call up to complain if it looked like he was going to miss his break!A Physical Needs Break would be rostered at locations where there were messing facilities of some kind. (When I was on the railway it was a minimum of forty minutes, to be taken between the third & fifth hours of the shift. There was a later variant that allowed two PNBs of minimum 20 minutes each but still between third & fifth hours; that was generally only used in suburban areas.) It would never be acceptable for a PNB to be taken in the loco cab. For the same reason a booked pause in a loop 'out in the country' would not relate to the driver's PNB. (In my experience, with the exception of some Trip workings - and especially yard pilots - a driver would be relieved when taking PNB, rather than leaving the train for the duration then taking it forward. Of course it would be possible for a PNB to be taken while a train was being (un)loaded, provided suitable facilities were provided.) Of course it does raise the possibility of rules being imposed to hold an arriving train until at least 40' after an unrelated train (usually in the opposite direction) had arrived, but to do that properly the TT writer would need access to drivers' diagrams, which I suspect are even harder to get hold of than loco diagrams. Log in to reply |