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Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 19:26 #138605 | |
lazzer
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I just had an interesting sequence of events at Murie UWC. It's 03.14, the ideal time of day to send a flock of sheep over the railway of course, so the farmer calls me up to ask to use the crossing. I already had a train routed over that section towards Perth (a class 08 travelling at 25mph), so told him to "call back after next train". Four minutes later I get a call saying the train has passed, so I give permission to cross the line. Another two minutes later I get a message saying that Murie crossing has failed. Given that the train apparently passed four minutes before, I found that to be a bit weird. It was followed immediately by a phone call from an irate farmer telling me that he thought I said it was safe to cross. Well it was, because you called me after the train passed! Didn't you? Surely that second call can't be triggered until the train has passed the crossing? So what happened there? Did he call me before the train had passed? I remember seeing the "W" light at Murie crossing illuminated before he called me to say the train had passed, so that suggests the train was approaching the crossing around this time. I've attached a save taken immediately afterwards. Have I missed something here? Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 19:52 #138607 | |
Steamer
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I think the reason for the crossing showing failed is that the low speed of the approaching train has exceeded the specified time for it to pass over the crossing. I'm not sure how that ties in to the 'Train passed' and 'Oi!' call logic.
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Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 19:54 #138608 | |
lazzer
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Steamer in post 138607 said:I think the reason for the crossing showing failed is that the low speed of the approaching train has exceeded the specified time for it to pass over the crossing. I'm not sure how that ties in to the 'Train passed' and 'Oi!' call logic.That sounds like a plausible reason, given the speed of the train (25 mph). I concluded that the code had thrown some kind of wobbly based on things going out of sequence ![]() Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 20:42 #138613 | |
bill_gensheet
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Known occurence, but not easy/possible to fix entirely, would seem to need artificial additional track circuits around all the LC's. Explanation given by Clive is: Quote: Mantis 23626 and 24433 for those who need to delve deeper. Both closed as sims altered to cope with the 'reasonable' real life conditions causing the issues. Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 21:56 #138619 | |
clive
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That previous explanation covers it. Note carefully that real AHBs behave like this: the SimSig logic is copied directly from the sample circuit diagrams in the Nock Red Book. It's not a deficiency in SimSig. The farmer is phoning to complain because the red lights have started flashing and the barriers descending after you told her it was safe. I don't blame her. Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 22:05 #138620 | |
ambergatesm
![]() 36 posts |
I had a similar experience on the Oxted sim. I had a phone call from Hempstead UWC asking to cross, but I cant remember for sure what they wanted to cross with, I think it was a slow vehicle or an abnormal load. I had a train waiting to depart Uckfield and the call came about 10 minutes before departure time. Thinking that this should give enough time to cross I told them it was safe to cross. I was expecting the "crossing clear" call after about 5 minutes, but no call came and the train departed and passed the crossing. 12 minutes after I gave them permission to cross I got the "oi" call.
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Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 22:28 #138622 | |
lazzer
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clive in post 138619 said:That previous explanation covers it. Note carefully that real AHBs behave like this: the SimSig logic is copied directly from the sample circuit diagrams in the Nock Red Book. It's not a deficiency in SimSig.The crossing in question is a UWC, with neither barriers nor lights, hence why he had to phone me for permission to cross ... Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 22:41 #138623 | |
lazzer
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ambergatesm in post 138620 said:I had a similar experience on the Oxted sim. I had a phone call from Hempstead UWC asking to cross, but I cant remember for sure what they wanted to cross with, I think it was a slow vehicle or an abnormal load. I had a train waiting to depart Uckfield and the call came about 10 minutes before departure time. Thinking that this should give enough time to cross I told them it was safe to cross. I was expecting the "crossing clear" call after about 5 minutes, but no call came and the train departed and passed the crossing. 12 minutes after I gave them permission to cross I got the "oi" call.Without a phone call I wouldn't have routed the train over the crossing at all. But how long do you leave it? If a reasonable amount of time passes and nothing has happened, you'd be tempted to contact the driver of the train and tell them to approach the crossing at caution and be prepared to stop, and to report in what they see there. With no option for doing this exactly in Simsig, the closest thing we have is pass signal at danger and/or examine the line, but I don't know whether or not doing this would prevent the driver from wiping out an articulated lorry stuck on the crossing :) I had to do something similar in real life at Parsonage Farm UWC crossing in the down direction, west of Castle Cary station. The farm workers there are usually very good at closing the gates behind them and calling the signaller. On this particular day someone had clearly forgotten to call to say the crossing was clear. I was stopped at the previous signal and told to approach the crossing at caution and stop to report if the gates were still open. I can't remember if I was authorised to pass the signal at danger or not. It's not a signal you want to have to pass at danger to examine the entire section ahead at caution, as it's almost nine miles to the next signal at Somerton! Last edited: 14/04/2021 at 22:42 by lazzer Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 14/04/2021 at 23:02 #138624 | |
ambergatesm
![]() 36 posts |
I don't know if you are familiar with Oxted sim, but there are no signals at Uckfield. When a train is waiting to depart from Uckfield there is no way of stopping it. The train will depart at it's booked time regardless of whether a route has been set or not.
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Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 09:05 #138625 | |
TUT
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lazzer in post 138622 said:The crossing in question is a UWC, with neither barriers nor lights, hence why he had to phone me for permission to cross ...You can get phone calls from AHBCs. Obviously they're not a standard part of the crossing process (obviously), but if someone's crossing with a large, low or slow moving vehicle they should contact you in case they get stuck on the crossing. lazzer in post 138623 said: ambergatesm in post 138620 said:You wouldn't have been S5-ed just cautioned.I had a similar experience on the Oxted sim. I had a phone call from Hempstead UWC asking to cross, but I cant remember for sure what they wanted to cross with, I think it was a slow vehicle or an abnormal load. I had a train waiting to depart Uckfield and the call came about 10 minutes before departure time. Thinking that this should give enough time to cross I told them it was safe to cross. I was expecting the "crossing clear" call after about 5 minutes, but no call came and the train departed and passed the crossing. 12 minutes after I gave them permission to cross I got the "oi" call.Without a phone call I wouldn't have routed the train over the crossing at all. But how long do you leave it? If a reasonable amount of time passes and nothing has happened, you'd be tempted to contact the driver of the train and tell them to approach the crossing at caution and be prepared to stop, and to report in what they see there. Last edited: 15/04/2021 at 09:09 by TUT Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 09:44 #138627 | |
lazzer
![]() 611 posts |
ambergatesm in post 138624 said:I don't know if you are familiar with Oxted sim, but there are no signals at Uckfield. When a train is waiting to depart from Uckfield there is no way of stopping it. The train will depart at it's booked time regardless of whether a route has been set or not.I've never played Oxted, but I loaded it up and had a look. It appears to be one of those situations where (I'm guessing based on my own experience) the guard or driver has to contact the signaller in some way before departing Uckfield, so the signaller knows not to allow anyone to use the crossing until the train has passed. Simsig doesn't simulate this action, so there's nothing to stop our train driver ploughing through a herd of sheep departing Uckfield ... Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 09:46 #138628 | |
Jan
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ambergatesm in post 138624 said:I don't know if you are familiar with Oxted sim, but there are no signals at Uckfield. When a train is waiting to depart from Uckfield there is no way of stopping it. The train will depart at it's booked time regardless of whether a route has been set or not. There are a few other similar dead-end branches where the driver is required to phone for permission to depart in the absence of any other fixed signalling precisely because of that kind of situation (some of which might even appear in Simsig, Barnstaple e.g. if I remember correctly?), but it seems that Uckfield isn't one of them. These days of course you can try getting hold of the driver via GSM-R at any time anyway, but how would things have been handled before that? Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 09:52 #138629 | |
lazzer
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Jan in post 138628 said:ambergatesm in post 138624 said:I guessed that this is the situation at Uckfield, because we have precisely the same situation on the Gunnislake branch with Helston Farm Crossing. The guard calls the signaller to obtain permission to depart Gunnislake, and the signaller then knows not to let anyone across Helston.I don't know if you are familiar with Oxted sim, but there are no signals at Uckfield. When a train is waiting to depart from Uckfield there is no way of stopping it. The train will depart at it's booked time regardless of whether a route has been set or not. In the event the guard can't contact the signaller before leaving Calstock, then the driver has to approach the crossing with caution and be prepared to stop. I looked in the KS&W Sectional Appendix to see if there were any local instructions of that nature for Uckfield, but there isn't anything about Hempstead crossing that I can find. Last edited: 15/04/2021 at 09:53 by lazzer Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ambergatesm |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 11:37 #138631 | |
lazzer
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TUT in post 138625 said:You wouldn't have been S5-ed just cautioned.I realised that once I'd posted, but couldn't be bothered to edit it :) And now I think about it, the signaller brought me down to a red signal at Castle Cary (I was stopping there anyway), called me on the GSM-R, and then cleared the signal for me to proceed at caution down to the crossing. The gates were closed, so somebody just forgot to call back. Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 14:04 #138635 | |
jc92
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lazzer in post 138631 said:TUT in post 138625 said:now there's an interesting subtle idea/feature request. X% of times crossing calls are received, the user doesn't call back at all!You wouldn't have been S5-ed just cautioned.I realised that once I'd posted, but couldn't be bothered to edit it :) "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 15:33 #138637 | |
Trainman525
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lazzer in post 138627 said:[quote=ambergatesm;post=138624]Simsig doesn't simulate this action, so there's nothing to stop our train driver ploughing through a herd of sheep departing Uckfield ...Hempstead crossing is less than a mile from the station. The train wouldn't have picked up that much speed. Especially since it is an uphill gradient. Line speed is 30 towards Uckfield and 70 out of Uckfield. But there is short sighting. So it is hard to tell if a train could stop in time. http://abcrailwayguide.uk/hempstead-private-level-crossing-east-sussex#.YHhcZuhKiUk Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 15:59 #138639 | |
lazzer
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Trainman525 in post 138637 said:lazzer in post 138627 said:Given that the individual risk for that crossing is shown as "High", and that short-sighting is mentioned as a risk, and given its location in relation to Uckfield, you would think that some kind of local instruction ought to be in place regarding trains departing Uckfield reporting to the signaller.[quote=ambergatesm;post=138624]Simsig doesn't simulate this action, so there's nothing to stop our train driver ploughing through a herd of sheep departing Uckfield ...Hempstead crossing is less than a mile from the station. The train wouldn't have picked up that much speed. Especially since it is an uphill gradient. That said, placing crossing safety solely on the reliance of whistle boards and users actually using the phones is just asking for trouble. User-worked crossings are, by their very nature, dangerous places. The number of people I've come within a few seconds of killing on user-worked crossings is more than I care to think about sometimes ... Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 16:09 #138640 | |
Late Turn
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ambergatesm in post 138620 said:I had a similar experience on the Oxted sim. I had a phone call from Hempstead UWC asking to cross, but I cant remember for sure what they wanted to cross with, I think it was a slow vehicle or an abnormal load. I had a train waiting to depart Uckfield and the call came about 10 minutes before departure time. Thinking that this should give enough time to cross I told them it was safe to cross. I was expecting the "crossing clear" call after about 5 minutes, but no call came and the train departed and passed the crossing. 12 minutes after I gave them permission to cross I got the "oi" call. There's a requirement in the signalling regs to provide signal protection for large or slow vehicles, or animals, though. If you're not able to do so, because there's no signal (or other published arrangement), they have to wait! Presumably the arrangement on the Gunnislake branch covers that. There's no such instruction on the Matlock branch - for example - and I understand that this could make life very difficult for tanker drivers using the UWC at Whatstandwell to access the sewage works. Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 17:16 #138645 | |
DriverCurran
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When I went to Oxted box as part of researching that project, no phone calls were received from train crew arriving at or departing Uckfield. Pual You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 17:26 #138646 | |
jc92
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Presumably while there's one in section its just a case of declining until the crossing user observes the train passing. I've had a quick look on google earth and it looks like quite a small crossing. I doubt you'd get a tractor and large trailer or lorry down it. probably a car or 4x4 but that's it. In reality I imagine the local farmer (I'm assuming thats why its there) would probably know the train timetable and have agreed arrangements with NR about when its best to request access as well, so is unlikely to request access at awkward times, which is something beyond Simsig's capability to replicate. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 18:11 #138647 | |
ajax103
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clive in post 138619 said:That previous explanation covers it. Note carefully that real AHBs behave like this: the SimSig logic is copied directly from the sample circuit diagrams in the Nock Red Book. It's not a deficiency in SimSig.How do we know it was a woman? Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 18:20 #138649 | |
Dionysusnu
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ajax103 in post 138647 said:clive in post 138619 said:She's also changed gender along the way, because the initial post refers using "he"That previous explanation covers it. Note carefully that real AHBs behave like this: the SimSig logic is copied directly from the sample circuit diagrams in the Nock Red Book. It's not a deficiency in SimSig.How do we know it was a woman? Quote: an irate farmer telling me that he thought I said it was safe to cross. Last edited: 15/04/2021 at 18:27 by Dionysusnu Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Was it safe to cross or not? 15/04/2021 at 22:25 #138660 | |
ambergatesm
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Hempstead UWC may be quiet in real life, but on the sim it can be busy with abnormal loads, slow vehicles, herds of cows, flocks of sheep and even a gaggle of geese. I think I will play it safe in future and make them wait if a train is at Uckfield and risk the "No sign of a "b----y" train call. With regard to Late Turn's comments about the Matlock branch, there are no track circuits between Ambergate and Matlock, so the signaller will not know where the train is. The guard does report when the train arrives at Matlock, but I think it is to control. In the Derby PSB sim the progress of the train is shown in the Train list. I travelled regularly on the branch before lockdown, and although I have seen tankers in the sewage works, I haven't seen one waiting to enter.
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Was it safe to cross or not? 16/04/2021 at 09:57 #138665 | |
lazzer
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ambergatesm in post 138660 said:Hempstead UWC may be quiet in real life, but on the sim it can be busy with abnormal loads, slow vehicles, herds of cows, flocks of sheep and even a gaggle of geese. I think I will play it safe in future and make them wait if a train is at Uckfield and risk the "No sign of a "b----y" train call. With regard to Late Turn's comments about the Matlock branch, there are no track circuits between Ambergate and Matlock, so the signaller will not know where the train is. The guard does report when the train arrives at Matlock, but I think it is to control. In the Derby PSB sim the progress of the train is shown in the Train list. I travelled regularly on the branch before lockdown, and although I have seen tankers in the sewage works, I haven't seen one waiting to enter.With regard to Ambergate, the LNE Sectional Appendix local instructions for Ambergate Junction to Matlock (page 177) state: "Guards of passenger trains starting from Matlock must advise the Signaller at the EMCC Derby Workstation by telephone when the train is ready to depart. Guards must also telephone the Train Delay Attributor on [REDACTED] to report information relative to arrival and departure times. If, however, the telephone has failed, the train must not be detained in order to carry out this instruction but the Signaller at the EMCC Derby Workstation must be advised of the circumstances at the first opportunity." Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ambergatesm |
Was it safe to cross or not? 16/04/2021 at 10:41 #138672 | |
Soton_Speed
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How common is it for users to give an estimation of the length of time to be taken to use a crossing? Is it always mandated? Are there any plans to implement the above in SimSig? Quiet often I have not given users permission to cross for long periods of time due to the indeterminate length of time the crossing will be in use. I am sure that in the real world some users (human and animal) will have decided to take their chances... In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply |