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The order of trains during multiple failures

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The order of trains during multiple failures 16/07/2021 at 13:42 #140608
bugsy
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I've just had an interesting time at Newark Northgate where I had a delayed train in platform 2 and two other south-bound trains (also delayed owing to TC failures further back) waiting at signals 98 and 96. Neither of these trains were due to stop in P2. There was a route available via P3 so rather that delay them further I sent them this way.
This meant that they were a bit out of order. Should I have done this or waited? What would real signallers do in these circumstances?

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The order of trains during multiple failures 16/07/2021 at 15:42 #140609
geswedey
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A lot depends on the location, known or unknown length of delay to the failed train, calling points of other trains that are able to pass the failure.

Controls both Network Rail and TOC would almost certainly also be involved these days due to PPM and delay attribution considerations (money changing hands).

for example in my old patch if a Stansted Express was delayed at Broxbourne London bound and the delay was going to be minimal I wouldn't expect to put a Cheshunt and all stations to Tottenham Hale stopper out in front, but it could happen if the same failure was at Harlow Town as the stopper could be looped at Broxbourne if required.

On Doncaster South due to the distances between stations and the looping possibilities Controls and Signallers would probably just do it.

Glyn

Glyn Calvert ACIRO
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The order of trains during multiple failures 16/07/2021 at 21:56 #140611
Phil-jmw
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In the case of Newark on the Up or Grantham on the Down, another option would be to turn a right time stopping service into the loop platform to perform its station duties while a late running non-stop service continues at line speed on the main line. Keeping the stopper on the main and running the delayed non-stopper through the loop platform around it would gain very little due to the reduction in speed turning the non-stopper in.
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The order of trains during multiple failures 16/07/2021 at 22:15 #140612
JamesN
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The salient point has already been answered, but I will correct you on one point Phil – Neither NR or TOC control have any interest whatsoever of the fiscal element of delay attribution. It would not remotely factor in decision making from either party.

NR Control will be managing the response and setting the over-arching strategy for mitigating the fallout of the disruption - usually through implementation of pre-prescribed train plans agreed with all operators on how to thin out the service. TOC control will be implementing that strategy, and finessing the plan to cater for real-world operations - EG plan 2B says cancel 1A01 but 1A01 carries passing crew for 1B01 so we'll cancel 1A02 instead - that kind of stuff.

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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 03:19 #140613
geswedey
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JamesN in post 140612 said:
The salient point has already been answered, but I will correct you on one point Phil – Neither NR or TOC control have any interest whatsoever of the fiscal element of delay attribution. It would not remotely factor in decision making from either party.

NR Control will be managing the response and setting the over-arching strategy for mitigating the fallout of the disruption - usually through implementation of pre-prescribed train plans agreed with all operators on how to thin out the service. TOC control will be implementing that strategy, and finessing the plan to cater for real-world operations - EG plan 2B says cancel 1A01 but 1A01 carries passing crew for 1B01 so we'll cancel 1A02 instead - that kind of stuff.
Having worked in a control I can assure you that PPM and therefore indirectly fiscal measures were definitely factored in during train service alteration discussions between NR and the TOCS. Glyn

Glyn Calvert ACIRO
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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 05:32 #140614
JamesN
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Currently working in a control, I will assure you PPM went the way of the dinosaurs as a performance metric quite a while ago now (2+ years on our route) - right time enroute is now what we aim for.

What constitutes “good controlling” might correlate with less money changing hands on the delay attribution side - but it isn’t, as inferred, ever a consideration; it breeds poor decision making because different service groups pay different amounts for delay minutes - therefore it encouraged those groups to be prioritised and others to disproportionately suffer more often. The “new” regime is much better for the customer, and overall performance.

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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 07:03 #140615
geswedey
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JamesN in post 140614 said:
Currently working in a control, I will assure you PPM went the way of the dinosaurs as a performance metric quite a while ago now (2+ years on our route) - right time enroute is now what we aim for.

What constitutes “good controlling” might correlate with less money changing hands on the delay attribution side - but it isn’t, as inferred, ever a consideration; it breeds poor decision making because different service groups pay different amounts for delay minutes - therefore it encouraged those groups to be prioritised and others to disproportionately suffer more often. The “new” regime is much better for the customer, and overall performance.
I retired 2 years ago so that explains that, we certainly saw one TOC prioritised over mine as their performance regime was tougher than ours. Glyn

Glyn Calvert ACIRO
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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 07:32 #140616
JamesN
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Different routes different philosophies; sorry to have worded it so firmly - with a re-read it wasn’t how I intended it to come across.

To go back to Bugsy’s initial point -

For your specific scenario, it’s just a certain platform at NNG that isn’t available. As a signalled route is available that gets around the problem, the signaller would just be expected to get on with it; and manage the delays accordingly - try and get trains back in correct order further up the line where practical, but you shouldn’t be needlessly further delaying trains to do so. Control would only intervene either on request that the service level through the failure was unmanageable, or they saw the delays creeping up past reasonable expectations.

Signallers are generally quite intelligent creatures when left to their own devices, and don’t respond well to micro-management.

Being the same island, P3 vice P2 is a complete non-issue.

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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 09:46 #140618
bugsy
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JamesN in post 140616 said:
Different routes different philosophies; sorry to have worded it so firmly - with a re-read it wasn’t how I intended it to come across.

To go back to Bugsy’s initial point -

For your specific scenario, it’s just a certain platform at NNG that isn’t available. As a signalled route is available that gets around the problem, the signaller would just be expected to get on with it; and manage the delays accordingly - try and get trains back in correct order further up the line where practical, but you shouldn’t be needlessly further delaying trains to do so. Control would only intervene either on request that the service level through the failure was unmanageable, or they saw the delays creeping up past reasonable expectations.

Signallers are generally quite intelligent creatures when left to their own devices, and don’t respond well to micro-management.

Being the same island, P3 vice P2 is a complete non-issue.
Thanks James.
That's what I did fortunately, but more by luck than judgement as at that point I hadn't noticed the stop at Grantham. I'm still not paying enough attention to the timetables. The two that I sent via platform 3 to overtake it were fasts, therefore I didn't need to change their orders around.

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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 18:36 #140627
Phil-jmw
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JamesN in post 140612 said:
The salient point has already been answered, but I will correct you on one point Phil – Neither NR or TOC control have any interest whatsoever of the fiscal element of delay attribution. It would not remotely factor in decision making from either party.

NR Control will be managing the response and setting the over-arching strategy for mitigating the fallout of the disruption - usually through implementation of pre-prescribed train plans agreed with all operators on how to thin out the service. TOC control will be implementing that strategy, and finessing the plan to cater for real-world operations - EG plan 2B says cancel 1A01 but 1A01 carries passing crew for 1B01 so we'll cancel 1A02 instead - that kind of stuff.
James at no point did I mention the delay penalty implications, mine was merely a practical, common sense train regulation solution to minimise delay to a non-stopping service. But speaking as a one-time train running and operations controller, and as others have mentioned here, in addition to laid down contingency plans for given situations in specific locations, delay penalties were definitely a consideration (but not necessarily the overriding one) in the decision-making process (no debate here on the rights or wrongs of that) when attempting service recovery (and my former control area hosted what was said to be the then most expensive TOC on the network regarding delay penalties). The initial question here though was merely what to do with a stopping train that may delay a couple of late running non-stoppers standing behind it, rather out of the scope of the contingency plans which are generally written for major disruptive events rather than the original post which is essentially a local regulating decision which can be arranged between the signalman and the station staff.

Last edited: 17/07/2021 at 18:50 by Phil-jmw
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The order of trains during multiple failures 17/07/2021 at 18:58 #140628
Phil-jmw
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JamesN in post 140614 said:
Currently working in a control, I will assure you PPM went the way of the dinosaurs as a performance metric quite a while ago now (2+ years on our route) - right time enroute is now what we aim for.

What constitutes “good controlling” might correlate with less money changing hands on the delay attribution side - but it isn’t, as inferred, ever a consideration; it breeds poor decision making because different service groups pay different amounts for delay minutes - therefore it encouraged those groups to be prioritised and others to disproportionately suffer more often. The “new” regime is much better for the customer, and overall performance.
A return to common-sense decision making (operational rather than financial) was starting to take place when I left the control function. It was a long time coming.

Last edited: 17/07/2021 at 19:02 by Phil-jmw
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