Authorizing train to pass red signal

Traditionally you would indeed have had to wait for the driver to ring using the signal post telephone and you wouldn't have known when the train had actually stopped unless you could see it out of the window.

These days with GSM-R radio (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway) the driver can send a waiting at signal message (kind of like the one you get in SimSig) at the push of a button and the signaller can send a contact signaller message at any time, including in response to a waiting at signal message, but also while the train is moving. If you know the train has stopped you can also ring the train yourself. Modelling something like this in SimSig comes up from time to time.

With this in mind if you're running a modern timetable and simulating a modern era you can give authority straight away through F2.

If you're playing a game set in an older era you might choose to wait, although the current rule book does require drivers to call immediately on being detained at a signal, unless they can see an obvious reason why they have been detained, in which case they should wait two minutes, or another time as shown on signal post signage or in the sectional appendix (which time may be 0 minutes). Not sure what the rules have been traditionally but that could also be taken as an excuse to dive right in.

It's a pretty open question and it's your choice really. Authorising a real train to pass a real signal at danger takes quite a bit longer than it does on SimSig because of all the safety critical comms so, as I've said before, unless you're gonna sit there and do the comms with yourself at your computer, I actually find the 2 minute delay is quite a nice compromise simulation of the time it takes to do a real 'S5'.

In reality, how long would it usually take to authorize the driver to pass the red signal after receiving the initial call ? Maybe we could "simulate" that by asking him the call again in , say 5 minutes, before giving the authorization ?

To further add to this, there is now a procedure for passing two signals in succession subject to a number of clauses being met. Unfortunately for Heaton Norris, one of those clauses is that the line must be TCB!

P.S. On Network Rail there is currently no requirement to say anything about points when passing a signal at danger, although with wrong-direction movements you do tell them to check, where possible, that points and crossings are set correctly for the movement (and that any unworked points have been secured (no need to say that if there aren't any)).

The Network Rail script used to go:

Driver of six mike three one standing at mike echo one five one signal, due to a track circuit failure I cannot clear signal mike echo one five one. When authorised I will require you to pass mike echo one five one signal at danger, proceed cautiously through the section and obey all other signals. Please repeat this message back to me.

You'd then need to get that repeated back in full, make any corrections, come to a clear understanding etc. If there are level crossings you need to pass on the required instructions and also instruct the driver to pass any SPAD indicator that might illuminate, if there are any (not very common).

However, a recent Rule Book change said that you're supposed to tell the driver whether you want them to proceed at a reduced speed until the aspect of the next main aspect stop signal ahead has been seen, at which point they can then obey that signal, or whether you want them to continue at a reduced speed until reaching that signal. Also, if you want a train to proceed only as far as a ground-position light signal, you have to explicitly state that (otherwise drivers will ignore GPLs in the route - you don't have to tell them to do that if that's what you want them to do).

In any case, you should then close out the conversation with:

That is correct driver, I authorise you to pass mike echo one five one signal at danger.

It can be quite slick and certainly shouldn't take 5 minutes per train, but with all the repeat backs and things it's a lot more than a couple of clicks.

P.S. On Network Rail there is currently no requirement to say anything about points when passing a signal at danger, although with wrong-direction movements you do tell them to check, where possible, that points and crossings are set correctly for the movement (and that any unworked points have been secured (no need to say that if there aren't any)).

However, a recent Rule Book change said that you're supposed to tell the driver whether you want them to proceed at a reduced speed until the aspect of the next main aspect stop signal ahead has been seen, at which point they can then obey that signal, or whether you want them to continue at a reduced speed until reaching that signal. Also, if you want a train to proceed only as far as a ground-position light signal, you have to explicitly state that (otherwise drivers will ignore GPLs in the route - you don't have to tell them to do that if that's what you want them to do).

Just a word of caution (ho ho!) against making blanket statements like "The Network Rail script used to go" as it's actually highly dependent on where you are in the country. Some areas provide scripts and some areas don't. Ultimately as long as all the requirements of the Rule Book are met and a clear understanding is reached the actual structure of the communication is not that important. The Rule Book is not overly prescriptive about the wording and structure of the conversation though it does have key phrases that must be used, such as 'proceed at caution' (not "proceed cautiously through the section").

Certainly where I am the suggested script, which is a relatively recent innovation that most of the signallers have little interest in adopting and management don't seem too fussed about either, doesn't require the conversation to be structured in the rather awkward tell-the-driver-you're-authorising-him-and-then-authorise-him-again manner you've set out. Actually our script was recently withdrawn due to the added complication arising from the amendment allowing passing two consecutive stop signals at danger.

TUT in post 141612 said:

However, a recent Rule Book change said that you're supposed to tell the driver whether you want them to proceed at a reduced speed until the aspect of the next main aspect stop signal ahead has been seen, at which point they can then obey that signal, or whether you want them to continue at a reduced speed until reaching that signal. Also, if you want a train to proceed only as far as a ground-position light signal, you have to explicitly state that (otherwise drivers will ignore GPLs in the route - you don't have to tell them to do that if that's what you want them to do).

The GPL part - is that part of that same rule book change? I was reading an RAIB report a while ago which stated a signaller specifically had to authorise for each of the GPLs individually.

Very well then I should say that I have quoted directly from the script I was trained on in initial signaller training. The railway is a big place with a long memory :P

Dealing with the issue is separate to the authorisation (I've had a train waiting 20 minutes for someone to handcrank points for instance) but as a typical example I had to do recently the call would be something like:

Loughborough signalbox signaller speaking.

Hello signaller, driver of two bravo zero one standing at red signal Lima four eight.

Hello driver two bravo zero one at red signal Lima four eight, at present I have a technical fault preventing me from clearing the signal. Im authorising you to pass signal Lima four eight at danger and proceed cautiously obeying all other fixed signals. The route is set and locked for the safety of your train into platform one, however I need to remind you to check the points are set safely before proceeding over them.

Understood. Im authorised to pass Lima four eight at danger and proceed into platform one cautiously and obeying all other signals. Ill check the points before I pass over them.

Thats correct. Signaller out

Thanks. Driver out

Interesting! You don't have to write anything down on a peace of paper, like we have to do here in Norway?
If you've stopped at a signal that can't show a green signal, you get authorisation from the dispatcher to pass the signal at danger, but you have to write it down on a form and then read it back to the dispatcher before you can pass.

And when passing a signal at danger, you need to proceed at a reduced speed (Maximum 40km/h (25mph) until you pass the next signal showing clear (Which might be 15 miles up ahead) Maxiumum speed over switches is 10 kmh (6,2mph) until you have driven over it with the whole train.

jc92 in post 141608 said:

Dealing with the issue is separate to the authorisation (I've had a train waiting 20 minutes for someone to handcrank points for instance) but as a typical example I had to do recently the call would be something like:

Loughborough signalbox signaller speaking.

Hello signaller, driver of two bravo zero one standing at red signal Lima four eight.

Hello driver two bravo zero one at red signal Lima four eight, at present I have a technical fault preventing me from clearing the signal. Im authorising you to pass signal Lima four eight at danger and proceed cautiously obeying all other fixed signals. The route is set and locked for the safety of your train into platform one, however I need to remind you to check the points are set safely before proceeding over them.

Understood. Im authorised to pass Lima four eight at danger and proceed into platform one cautiously and obeying all other signals. Ill check the points before I pass over them.

Thats correct. Signaller out

Thanks. Driver out

Interesting! You don't have to write anything down on a peace of paper, like we have to do here in Norway?
If you've stopped at a signal that can't show a green signal, you get authorisation from the dispatcher to pass the signal at danger, but you have to write it down on a form and then read it back to the dispatcher before you can pass.

And when passing a signal at danger, you need to proceed at a reduced speed (Maximum 40km/h (25mph) until you pass the next signal showing clear (Which might be 15 miles up ahead) Maxiumum speed over switches is 10 kmh (6,2mph) until you have driven over it with the whole train.

As the signal in question - AD799 - is at the interface of Railtrack's Southern Zone and Eurotunnel Administration, when the signaller does authorise the driver to pass this signal at danger, he does so by dictating information, which the driver must write down on what is known as a livre formulaire.

...

But whatever procedure is currently in place, the message here is plain and simple: don't move until you are 100% sure that you've understood the instructions and you have confirmed you do have the authority.

For a simple S5 (passing a signal at danger with authority) there's no standard form that I'm aware of (Ron_J's got me hedging my bets here! ) although I do have a vague recollection of a video where I think a form was used in an example S5 at Ashford IECC, I'll have to have a look.

There are forms for things like temporary block working and single line working.