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Oxford SX 09-24-2021 27/03/2022 at 17:23 #145886 | |
Newhampshires
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Hey everyone, Oxford SX 09-24-2021 has been uploaded and released to the public. It can be played as a standalone timetable or in a chain with Marylebone (and beyond that, Leamington Spa & Fenny Compton). The timetable can be downloaded here: https://www.SimSig.co.uk/File/Details/2733 Please feel free to comment, leave feedback, or any corrections that may be needed. Thank you! Quote: Welcome to Oxford! Last edited: 27/03/2022 at 17:24 by Newhampshires Reason: Last thread went kaboom. Log in to reply |
Oxford 24 Sep 2021 17/04/2022 at 20:20 #146180 | |
peterb
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A few issues with train types in this WTT - Why are DMU top speeds not quite 75/100mph? Why are most freights only 65mph? Including class 6 (60mph) Why is 6V25 800m? Last edited: 17/04/2022 at 21:10 by headshot119 Reason: Moved to timetable thread Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 17/04/2022 at 21:14 #146181 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
Mod Note Merged a thread about this TT into the original one.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: i26, Newhampshires |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 02:28 #146186 | |
Newhampshires
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Quote:Why are DMU top speeds not quite 75/100mph? I would defer to Wellgroomed for the answer on this one. Quote: Why are most freights only 65mph? Including class 6 (60mph) I don't have any good answer for this other than: Error. Quote: Why is 6V25 800m? This service represents a High Output Ballast Cleaner which is 800m in length. Last edited: 18/04/2022 at 02:30 by Newhampshires Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 04:31 #146187 | |
wellgroomed
![]() 110 posts |
Re: speeds of DMUs. This is to reflect that they don't run constantly at the fixed top maximum speed. They're set a few mph less, which makes their running times much closer to reality.
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Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 07:20 #146188 | |
peterb
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I'm sorry but are you able to prove it was an HOBC on this day? I've never known the HOBC to run on this train during my time of living in the area - I wonder also whether Hinksey would be able to accommodate it let alone Kennington.
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Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 08:25 #146190 | |
postal
![]() 5216 posts |
wellgroomed in post 146187 said:Re: speeds of DMUs. This is to reflect that they don't run constantly at the fixed top maximum speed. They're set a few mph less, which makes their running times much closer to reality.First point is that most passenger trains in SimSig TTs should gain time. This is because most WTT paths include allowances for pathing, engineering works etc. These allowances will include an element of contingency time to help a train get back to schedule if there has been any operational perturbation. The best indication as to whether a train is actually running to schedule is to validate the actual running time for a sector against the timing in the TT nett of allowances. Artificially adjusting the characteristics of a particular train type is subverting the whole principle behind the writing of the real world WTT. It also reduces the ability of the signaller to get things back to schedule after an incident. If you do feel the need to create an artificial TT another approach would be to change the acceleration and weight settings in the train type rather than changing the maximum speed. In the actual operation there will be some instances where the driver continues at line speed even though there are allowances in hand so running early because the driver is aware of a problem which will lose some time further down the line and other cases where a driver will reduce speed and run to time as the train may create a conflicting move if it arrives early at a junction and so would be held until the conflicting move was cleared. Adjusting speeds for those situations while running a simulation is something far beyond the remit of the SimSig core code. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 18/04/2022 at 08:26 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 08:36 #146192 | |
Meld
![]() 1108 posts |
peterb in post 146188 said:I'm sorry but are you able to prove it was an HOBC on this day? I've never known the HOBC to run on this train during my time of living in the area - I wonder also whether Hinksey would be able to accommodate it let alone Kennington.6V25 is a mixed engineers train and can vary from day to day. confusion with HOBC easily done but its a Colas job, normally bogie boxes, hoppers or side tipplers(HQAs) I have seen it formed as 2 axle MHA spoil types as well. 6M50 is the opposite working IIRC at Water Orton 26/5/21 formed below 70805 w 15.09 6m50 westbury-bescot 29520 29344 705892026 29546 503014 29408 29461 29115 705892004 29108 705892009 29212 29409 29276 29079 29236 29411 29507 HTH Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 18/04/2022 at 13:08 by Meld Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 12:16 #146196 | |
wellgroomed
![]() 110 posts |
postal in post 146190 said:wellgroomed in post 146187 said:They are adjusted to match how it runs in reality and consequently why it was done in the first place. This was done quite deliberately and with 'Chiltern' driving style to reflect ATP intervention.Re: speeds of DMUs. This is to reflect that they don't run constantly at the fixed top maximum speed. They're set a few mph less, which makes their running times much closer to reality.First point is that most passenger trains in SimSig TTs should gain time. This is because most WTT paths include allowances for pathing, engineering works etc. These allowances will include an element of contingency time to help a train get back to schedule if there has been any operational perturbation. The best indication as to whether a train is actually running to schedule is to validate the actual running time for a sector against the timing in the TT nett of allowances. Artificially adjusting the characteristics of a particular train type is subverting the whole principle behind the writing of the real world WTT. It also reduces the ability of the signaller to get things back to schedule after an incident. If you do feel the need to create an artificial TT another approach would be to change the acceleration and weight settings in the train type rather than changing the maximum speed. The writing of the real world timetable and how trains perform in real life are totally separate. I can confidently say that with the reduced speeds, it comfortably reflects what actually happens in the Marylebone area. In that respect, I'm quite happy with a slightly lower maximum speed for a timetable that someone has written. Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 13:20 #146198 | |
postal
![]() 5216 posts |
wellgroomed in post 146196 said:They are adjusted to match how it runs in reality and consequently why it was done in the first place. This was done quite deliberately and with 'Chiltern' driving style to reflect ATP intervention.You could do this without entering adjusted data by using the Class of Service and Defensive Driving rules to reflect the Chiltern driving styles. We all want to see things running as realistically as possible but if there are ways to do it within the capabilities of the SimSig code then it is preferable to use those capabilities and real data in my view. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: peterb, Meld |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 13:50 #146199 | |
wellgroomed
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postal in post 146198 said:wellgroomed in post 146196 said:I think we're talking at cross purposes, which is probably my fault.They are adjusted to match how it runs in reality and consequently why it was done in the first place. This was done quite deliberately and with 'Chiltern' driving style to reflect ATP intervention.You could do this without entering adjusted data by using the Class of Service and Defensive Driving rules to reflect the Chiltern driving styles. We all want to see things running as realistically as possible but if there are ways to do it within the capabilities of the SimSig code then it is preferable to use those capabilities and real data in my view. I was citing defensive driving styles as a fact of reality, but that those are already a factor. Setting the maximum speed at 98mph is just one way of reflecting that trains don't sit at 100mph whilst bombing along the mainline. Irrespective of who's writing the TT, it doesn't really make any difference as long as the TT runs as intended. Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 14:16 #146200 | |
postal
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Depends on how you view the integrity of the data used. Each to their own but if anyone is taking the trouble to create a TT based on real-life information then it is my view that the TT has more credibility if the source data hasn't been doctored to make things fit - particularity when making things fit takes away the capability to run to best effect when recovering from perturbation. Not a "die in the ditch" issue just a personal matter about respect for the data. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 18/04/2022 at 14:24 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 15:00 #146202 | |
peterb
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Are you citing "reality" driving styles as the reason why freights are 65mph?
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Oxford SX 09-24-2021 18/04/2022 at 15:12 #146203 | |
wellgroomed
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peterb in post 146202 said:Are you citing "reality" driving styles as the reason why freights are 65mph?No. Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 19/04/2022 at 18:48 #146219 | |
Newhampshires
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Meld in post 146192 said:peterb in post 146188 said:Thank you for the info. I do see the TSC code as a Colas Rail working. Do you have any insight or indication what its composition was on this particular day? I am always looking for new sources of information, particularly one showing the composition or make-up of freight trains, rather than having to search Youtube for trains running the same headcode on different days. (Not saying that's what happened here with 6V25, as I honestly don't remember...But I do understand now that its rather unlikely an HOBC would run under a Colas Rail TSC and this headcode)I'm sorry but are you able to prove it was an HOBC on this day? I've never known the HOBC to run on this train during my time of living in the area - I wonder also whether Hinksey would be able to accommodate it let alone Kennington.6V25 is a mixed engineers train and can vary from day to day. confusion with HOBC easily done but its a Colas job, normally bogie boxes, hoppers or side tipplers(HQAs) I have seen it formed as 2 axle MHA spoil types as well. postal in post 146198 said: wellgroomed in post 146196 said:Thank you for the suggestion. For a defensive driving ruleset to achieve the same result, would it be appropriate/make sense to use the following:They are adjusted to match how it runs in reality and consequently why it was done in the first place. This was done quite deliberately and with 'Chiltern' driving style to reflect ATP intervention.You could do this without entering adjusted data by using the Class of Service and Defensive Driving rules to reflect the Chiltern driving styles. We all want to see things running as realistically as possible but if there are ways to do it within the capabilities of the SimSig code then it is preferable to use those capabilities and real data in my view. ![]() If not, what would you suggest otherwise? :) peterb in post 146188 said: I'm sorry but are you able to prove it was an HOBC on this day? I've never known the HOBC to run on this train during my time of living in the area - I wonder also whether Hinksey would be able to accommodate it let alone Kennington.peterb in post 146202 said: Are you citing "reality" driving styles as the reason why freights are 65mph?Peterb, your perceived enthusiasm in having an accurate simulation is shared by me. Sometimes oversights, or in this case, flat-out mistakes happen when writing a timetable. One of the beauties of Simsig: Train types can always be added or edited. As for Hinksey Recp, the manual lists both as 1170m in length (albeit one line does have a stop board in the middle). Kennington DGL is listed as 520m. https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=simulations:oxford#platform_and_loop_lengths I am always happy to update timetables I've produced when better information comes along or someone points something out that shouldn't be. I do my best to be as realistic as possible, but sometimes a lack of knowledge, experience, or access to information can get in the way of that. Any changes done to Oxford would have to be replicate to Marylebone and LS&FC too. Last edited: 19/04/2022 at 18:55 by Newhampshires Reason: 2ND UPDATE: NEW PICTURE ADDED TO REFLECT DROP TO 98% OF LINESPEED Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 19/04/2022 at 19:01 #146220 | |
postal
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Newhampshires in post 146219 said:Thank you for the suggestion. For a defensive driving ruleset to achieve the same result, would it be appropriate/make sense to use the following:Wellgroomed is probably the best one to ask about the defensive driving rules that Chiltern apply. However, the suggestion you have put forward is basically the same as putting in an artificial maximum speed in the train type as you are setting the maximum speed when running under greens to 98% of the actual capability. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 19/04/2022 at 19:46 #146221 | |
Meld
![]() 1108 posts |
Sorry but I don't have the actual consist for the day. The train is NR Infrastructure and looking back over the last 18 months 6V25 is poorly reported on Midland Wagons however the return 6M50 is quite well documented. 6V25 is formed of wagons off the Basford Hall & Toton Bescot trip workings It can vary from 5 to 20 MRA or JJA auto-ballasters in units of 5, or an average 18-20 NR bogie boxes or any combination of said wagons. Note that if theres no traffic to come from Westbury but traffic for 6V25 then the loco will run light as 0M50 to work 6V25, it has occaisionally be known for a 0V25 but that is rarer than hens teeth Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 20/04/2022 at 20:35 #146229 | |
Newhampshires
![]() 101 posts |
postal in post 146190 said:postal in post 146220 said: I have been thinking over the past day how to make this work, because I'm genuinely interested in making this even better. The question I have at this point is: Is there a way to have a train type run 1 or 2mph below the linespeed in "normal-running good times" and a way for a train to run at linespeed when there is trouble or delays? I assume from what Wellgroomed has posted here that the intention of putting the train type max speed at 74 (for example) was to replicate the defensive driving rules of Chiltern. That train type could be amended and a new defensive driving rule set could be implemented to have a train run at 98-99% of linespeed...But again, this would be in effect whether a train was delayed or not. Am I mistaken in thinking that a train in Simsig is unable to detect how late it is and then consequently speed itself up or "ditch" a defensive driving rule set in favour of making up time? I've always seen the pathing and engineering allowances on the WTT and Simsig. Is the key to use these fields and that would enable a train type to detect between "good times" and "bad times"? Help. Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 20/04/2022 at 20:49 #146231 | |
GeoffM
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Newhampshires in post 146229 said:While it would be easy enough to run at X% lower than top speed if early, and nearly at top speed if late, it's difficult to work out whether a train is delayed between two timing points. Yes, a real life driver would have a good idea, but doing that in code is more tricky. A faster train could depart a station on time, then get stuck behind a slower train for a few minutes, which then moves out of the way to give greens to the faster train, until it reaches the next timing point (by now late). SimSig Boss Last edited: 20/04/2022 at 20:50 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 20/04/2022 at 20:59 #146232 | |
Newhampshires
![]() 101 posts |
GeoffM in post 146231 said:And that does make sense. Geoff, do you have an opinion or suggestion on the matter? Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 20/04/2022 at 21:08 #146233 | |
GeoffM
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Newhampshires in post 146232 said:GeoffM in post 146231 said:Not really. One could perhaps have a flag that gets set if the train passes somewhere early or on time, and then gets unset if a restrictive aspect is encountered, or if it passes the next location late. But that's not going to work if a train was timed on a 125mph fast line and is actually running on a 75mph slow line. There is no information in the timetable that can be linked to simulation data to identify what the speed the train was timed at. You can't use the train's maximum speed because it may have actually been scheduled and timed on the slow line.And that does make sense. [Edit] If people think it's worth a try anyway, I guess I could look into it. It would be opt-in though, by timetable writers, probably under Defensive Driving Rules. SimSig Boss Last edited: 20/04/2022 at 21:36 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 20/04/2022 at 21:43 #146234 | |
Newhampshires
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GeoffM in post 146233 said:If developed, the concept being opt-in and located under Defensive Driving Rules seems most appropriate. Your description of the concept makes sense too. If early or on time, then run at 98-99% of linespeed (that's what I would enter to fulfill this scenario here). If late, then cancel ruleset and run at linespeed. Checks could theoretically occur at each timing point (I say that not knowing anything behind the core code). I like the idea, Geoff. I say go for it. I reckon the other folks above would fancy the idea too. Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 21/04/2022 at 07:26 #146241 | |
Jan
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GeoffM in post 146233 said:
One additional idea, which might also help a little, even if it wouldn't solve all corner cases: If the train is guaranteed to be late at the next location, i.e. the current sim time becomes later than the departure/passing time at the next location. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
Oxford SX 09-24-2021 21/04/2022 at 08:01 #146242 | |
kbarber
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In the end, I don't think we can expect the code writers to do everything. The real railway depends on 'wetware', which is capable of many things even the most sophisticated AI (let-alone a (very good) relatively simple sim like this) can't get near. For example, a quote from John Heaton writing in this month's Practice & Performance in Railway Magazine: "I always feel that 'Elizabethan' drivers worked to a timetable of their own, not far from the published one but a version that reduced the chances of a dead stand caused by misregulation or early running, yet close enough to right time not to lose their path." The context was a log of the up 'non-stop' in 1958, accomplished with little fast running (89mph maximum, a gentle stroll for an A4 in good nick) and arriving 3 minutes early on a 395 minute timing. Anyone fancy trying to program a sim to do that, even without signals to get in the way? Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |