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| King's Cross in the late 70s 25/09/2022 at 13:40 #148138 | |
Bonan
55 posts |
I'm doing a few small improvements to the excellent 1977 timetable, for my own enjoyment, to take advantage of features added to Simsig since the timetable was first relased back in 2010. Adding crew changes, tweaking some shunt movements etc. I've got a few questions about the King's Cross area back in those days, so I can get things right. - What class of DMUs were used on outer suburban services to Royston/Cambridge/Huntingdon etc? They are only refered as "DMU" in the timetable and might have too restrictive acceleration properties. But perhaps those old DMU's were a bit underpowered compared to what we are used to today? - Class 31's seemed to haul the majority of Cambridge/Peterborough fast services. They are restricted to 70 mph in the timetable, even though the majority of class 31's were good for 90. Is there a reason for this? - Same goes for some early morning long-distance passenger/parcel/newspaper services hauled by class 40, 46, 47 and 55 locomotives. Were there parcel vans in use that restricted trains to 70? - Again, same thing for the overnight sleeper services. I suspect they were timetabled at lower speeds for passenger comfort, but could they do 80/90 if needed to make up time? I believe they did on the WCML at least. - Any reason why the slow lines north of Hitchin were essentialy unused? Even some unfitted 35 mph freight trains are timetabled to use the fast lines. Swedish driver and part-time signaller Last edited: 25/09/2022 at 13:51 by Bonan Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| King's Cross in the late 70s 25/09/2022 at 14:02 #148140 | |
bill_gensheet
1431 posts |
Some of the image links and notes in my '1964' might help you. As for timings, I read somewhere (maybe LNER.info forum) that the 'inner area' was 60mph restricted. i found that to meet the PTT timings I had to set express trains to 'medium' and 70mph. As 1964 was early diesel I doubt much changed through to 1977. Bill Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Bonan |
| King's Cross in the late 70s 25/09/2022 at 14:27 #148141 | |
58050
2660 posts |
From my memories of trains spotting at Kings Cross in 1976 the DMUs tended to be Cl.105 Cravens that worked out of there.
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| King's Cross in the late 70s 25/09/2022 at 14:43 #148142 | |
Peter Bennet
5419 posts |
I think Finsbury Park had an allocation of Cravens units and I've seen photos of Derbys in and around the area. I think Met Cams did a lot of the Cambridge and Peterbourgh-based trains. As for the speeds, I can't remember where they came from, quite possibly a bit of fiddling to get the trains to run at about the right speed to keep to the timetable. From memory, the motive power used for each train was completely random on my part save for the Deltic workings which are accurate for the day mentioned. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Bonan |
| King's Cross in the late 70s 25/09/2022 at 20:28 #148151 | |
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broodje
184 posts |
Quote:As for the speeds, I can't remember where they came from, quite possibly a bit of fiddling to get the trains to run at about the right speed to keep to the timetable. This was very much the case. When testing your timetable we were specifically asked to test if trains were not running to fast or slow compared to their timetable. Suburban trains were way to fast if timed at 90mph. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Peter Bennet |
| King's Cross in the late 70s 26/09/2022 at 08:23 #148158 | |
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trolleybus
150 posts |
I used to commute to school on that line in the 70s. Off-peak suburbans were class 105s. The service was bolstered in the peaks with Class 125 units and LHCS.
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| King's Cross in the late 70s 27/09/2022 at 10:55 #148167 | |
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kbarber
1764 posts |
As I recall, it was pretty much all Cravens units before electrification then a complete changeover to Metro-Cammel sets when the services were restructured at switch-on. Hauled workings, again only until electrification, included a couple of P'boro' or beyond (I think one of them originated at Stamford of all places) up to KX in the mornings and back in the evenings, a cl31 and Mk 1 corridor coaches. There were the Cambridge Buffet Expresses, likewise cl31 worked. The non-corridor stock tended to be kept south of Hitchin (except for bank holiday specials) but my knowledge of what went on with them is sketchy at best. I can't imagine a 31 with 6 on being good for 90, even if it was authorised. Their acceleration was nothing to write home about either. The Cravens units weren't that hot either, though it was - just - possible to see 70mph between Biggleswade and Sandy (but not t'other way about) if you were fast line. I believe sleepers were kept to 60mph maximum for passenger comfort. I have an idea (but can't be sure at this distance) there was no relaxation for late running. As for the 'papers' (and other parcels workings), they were a pretty mixed bag of stock so 70mph maximum doesn't greatly surprise me. There would be no prohibition on using the slow lines, but the turnouts on and off would always mean signalmen preferred to keep traffic fast line where there was a margin. Remember turnouts were limited to 15mph (relaxed to 20mph for DMUs), so no 70mph at Digswell or Woolmer Green for trains going inside. Likewise at Arlesey and at Sandy (where there were 2-track sections until resignalling) and at Huntingdon on the up. Nor at Hitchin South, Stevenage (the old station at Stevenage was about a mile north of the present one remember) or any of the other places where there were fast-to-slow crossovers. Worth remembering that considerable stretches of the slow lines had formerly been goods lines, subject to a 40mph maximum; although that had been increased to 70mph with the change to slow line status, I suspect old habits died hard. (And don't think, in those days, that class 8 actually meant 35mph maximum. The old system of classification was based on brake force calculations and, subject to the maximum speed of any wagon on the train, drivers were responsible for deciding what speed was safe & appropriate, which on the GN could mean a bit of a wild ride for the guard!) Signalmen were encouraged to regulate traffic to best advantage, so timetabling slow or fast road was not particularly important. With single-needle telegraph instruments in use, on a circuit that ran (at least) P'boro' - Kings X, certain boxes were required to telegraph passing times of express trains so signalmen knew what was about and what margins they might have. Gerry Fiennes reckoned GN signalmen were the best regulators in the world - but only because it simply couldn't have worked if they hadn't been. Some, of course, would be more 'courageous' than others, and sometimes they could come unstuck, which would lead to an inspector being sent out to have a suitable word. Which led to an interesting conversation when a relief signalman (I'll call him Jack) who was known for being particularly brave had indeed come unstuck, and hammered a fast rather badly. So the following week, on late turn, he wasn't surprised to hear the crunch of boots on the stairs as the DI arrived. (I often wonder who the DI was that day; it could easily have been my father, but the source of the story never mentioned the name.) "I suppose you know why I'm here, Jack?" was the DI's opener. "Er, yes guv, I suppose I do." "Good. That's all right then. Is the kettle on?" Last edited: 27/09/2022 at 10:56 by kbarber Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, Bonan |
| King's Cross in the late 70s 27/09/2022 at 19:12 #148171 | |
Red For Danger
172 posts |
I remember the KX route into London very well from the 1970's. The DMU's were almost always class 105 cravens, of varying length. They vibrated enormously and rattled along, rarely reaching 50 to 60mph between stops unless on a long downhill stretch. In regard to the Cambridge Buffets, there was normally 2 types of traction. The Cambridge stabled loco was always a 31, but the Kings Cross based loco was normally a 47. There was quite a difference between the acceleration and speeds as one can imagine, and the 31 would struggle to trundle along at 60 to 65 with the 6 or 7 carriage consist of these trains whereas the 47 would often gain time and have long station stops as a consequence. The exception was the downhill stretch when heading south on the Up main south of Potters Bar, where the speed could increase up to the mid 80's or so for the 31 hauled sets. The comment re the turnouts is also correct and it should also be remembered that many of them were at completely different locations to where they are now. For example, the crossovers between the fast and slows at Hitchin were fairly close to the station, whereas they are some way away now to allow the bulk of the deceleration to occur on the slow after crossing from the fast at 70mph. Traffic in those days was far more sparse than now but with the interest that varying loco's and consists would provide. You never knew what would turn up next..... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Bonan |
| King's Cross in the late 70s 28/09/2022 at 19:01 #148179 | |
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Bonan
55 posts |
Thanks for all the great replies and information, I've been away from home for work so I've been unable to do any more work. I'll experiment a bit with different acceleration and weight settings in the train categories to see what works the best. It would certainly add a bit of challange to have noticeably different performance based on what class of locomotive is hauling the train. Swedish driver and part-time signaller Log in to reply The following user said thank you: flabberdacks |