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Update to West Hampstead Sim 06/04/2023 at 12:01 #151057 | |
TayViation
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Disclaimer: I did do a bit of digging to see if this was mentioned previously. I noticed it had been mentioned in 2020 but we are now in 2023 and I was wondering if any plans had surfaced. [!] This is an era update request for West Hampstead, with reasoning for an eventual KGX update subsequently [!] The West Hampstead sim is one on my wishlist, albeit probably not just yet. The latest era for this simulation is 2009, which is going back quite a bit, and is probably the reason why I'm holding back. Since then, there have been a few real life changes in the area this simulation covers. For example, the development of the new station Brent Cross West is almost complete and would no longer be a constraint of an updated West Hampstead sim. While the Thameslink core is there, chaining with the connecting London Bridge sim, it would be great to chain up with Kings Cross via the Canal Tunnels to St Pancras Low Level. As an outsider looking in, this seems like only a small modification to the existing lines and creating a fringe - but perhaps it's much more complex than that! But this would definitely open up more capabilities for chaining with friends (and, personally, I'd go on to consider buying LBG and WH sims.) I do understand that Kings Cross is a free simulation (more specifically, donationware) so I get that there would be a smaller motive to update that with Stevenage P5, the Canal Tunnel link and possibly the new KGX track layout. Footnote: I greatly appreciate the work done and lengths that the developers go to to provide us with these simulations, outside their own lives, especially with the free sims which are undoubtedly under-appreciated in my opinion. Era updates to existing simulations are something we don't get too often (again, understandably), but when we do they breathe some fresh air into these sims so they can continue into the future. Lastly, I apologise if bringing up old, locked threads are frowned upon in this community. While the Simsig community is active and developers/moderators chat regularly, I don't think we receive much communication regarding upcoming simulations or updates to sims (until they happen, of course). Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places for news/updates. Once again apologies to deviate from topic. Cheers Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Nic_ola, SL_Transport2 |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 06/04/2023 at 16:42 #151063 | |
0D07
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Afternoon, Forget the modern era myself I would like to see West Hampstead PSB done as when it was 1st commissioned with Platform 1 still in use at St. Pancras and Cambridge Street L.I.P. Still open the sim goes as far back as 1985 but be nice to see it as it was commissioned. Regards, Delta Zero Seven Log in to reply The following users said thank you: 58050, TUT, sunocske, elltrain3 |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 07/04/2023 at 11:26 #151078 | |
ajax103
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0D07 in post 151063 said:Afternoon,I like to see that too but add a more detailed Churchyard sidings to the St Pancras area along with a decent 1980s timetable to go with it eg Peaks. As to the modern era, as well as Canal Tunnels and Brent Cross West as well as the remodelling of Cricklewood depot including the refuse terminal, you also need to update both Bedford St John's Goods Line and the former Engineer's Yard now known as Jowetts Sidings as well as update the reversing siding at St Albans with a track circuit berth as that was installed by Network Rail last year as previously it didn't have one. Just to confirm with regards to the St Albans work, the work to install a track circuit berth was commissioned on the 6th Nov 2022 with the pointwork/15mph speed in and out of siding staying as it is and 5 mph towards stop block which also has new T/C disruptor fitted. Not to mention putting in all the 12 car extensions at the stations where this was done eg Luton which meant the foot crossing, North End Loop and Centre Siding all went. So quite a lot of work for a 2022 era however much it might be liked. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Nic_ola, TayViation |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 07/04/2023 at 12:28 #151079 | |
bill_gensheet
![]() 1357 posts |
It is known that Kings Cross is now a 'frozen' sim, and that '2023' Kings Cross (with no P11, 3 tunnels, Thameslink, Stevenage P5 etc) would be a new sim entirely. Given the level of changes noted above, and how difficult it is to implement and test (in sim and timetabling) overlapping multiple eras accurately, I would not be surprised if a similar decision was arrived at for the sim covering MML. Maybe time to freeze it (or simple backdates only) and move on. That way you would ultimately get a new sim pair for current (2023+) timetables that were initially single era and (only) compatible with each other. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TayViation |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 07/04/2023 at 13:04 #151080 | |
ajax103
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bill_gensheet in post 151079 said:It is known that Kings Cross is now a 'frozen' sim, and that '2023' Kings Cross (with no P11, 3 tunnels, Thameslink, Stevenage P5 etc) would be a new sim entirely.You might want to apply the same logic to Victoria South Eastern and London Bridge as both underwent massive changes as part of the Thameslink programme in that it would be far less hassle to just do what you have suggested, I don't think Victoria South Central underwent much if any work during the Thameslink programme. I understand what you are saying though. Log in to reply |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 01:16 #151083 | |
flabberdacks
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Adding an era to an already-released sim isn't impossible, but it is a monstrous undertaking. One big risk is potentially breaking all the user-submitted timetables - even those which don't apply to the new era, due to changes in the background made to support the new era. The complexity of coding a new era without wrecking people's hard work makes it daunting to attempt. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 06:51 #151086 | |
Stephen Fulcher
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No existing saved games would work either
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Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 07:27 #151088 | |
ajax103
![]() 1113 posts |
flabberdacks in post 151083 said:Adding an era to an already-released sim isn't impossible, but it is a monstrous undertaking.On the other hand, it might mean that those timetables that have had to use work arounds due to simulation limitations may not need to do so and could re-release their timetables with the effected changes that are now possible in them. In any case, I can count a minimum of 7 simulations that have had major remodelling done IRL since the simulations themselves have been released to bring them to a 2022 era. Log in to reply |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 07:38 #151089 | |
Hap
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ajax103 in post 151088 said:flabberdacks in post 151083 said:It isn't just a case of simply redrawing a sim with the visible changes, as I'm sure has already been said. You need the data, or would you rather have a simulation that's been guessed rather than accurate?Adding an era to an already-released sim isn't impossible, but it is a monstrous undertaking.Quote: How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 08:00 #151091 | |
Meld
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ajax103 in post 151088 said:flabberdacks in post 151083 said:You obviously don't understand the complexity of timetabling, while we are getting modern day TTs being banged out a couple of days after they actually ran, as has been proved they aren't tested as much as any timetable that is bundled with sim. A new simulation timetable will certainly have knock on effects into other bundled TTs, for example one new sim timetable may affect 5/6 other sims that more than likely need to be completely rebuilt from scratch so that everything matches up, that decisions stocktypes etc all match. Then they need to be tested with full run throughs, at least twice.Adding an era to an already-released sim isn't impossible, but it is a monstrous undertaking.[quote]On the other hand, it might mean that those timetables that have had to use work arounds due to simulation limitations may not need to do so and could re-release their timetables with the effected changes that are now possible in them. As 2 developers above have given good reasons as to why it isnt always possible to "just add a new era", historical or modern day. Older sims could require more than one new era, a lot of work for very little gain. People want new sims so developers time is better spent on this and maintaining, not adding eras to existing sims Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 08/04/2023 at 08:02 by Meld Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 10:08 #151094 | |
Jan
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ajax103 in post 151088 said:On the other hand, it might mean that those timetables that have had to use work arounds due to simulation limitations may not need to do so and could re-release their timetables with the effected changes that are now possible in them. Don't forget that the XML-based timetable format gives quite a bit of flexibility for manual editing outside of Simsig. The major thing that ties a timetable to a specific simulation (beyond the simulation ID in the header file) is timetable locations. Regular timetable locations are mostly based on TIPLOC codes, so will remain compatible between sims. Simsig-specific locations like special reversing points, entrance locations etc. can in principle mostly be kept compatible between differing sims (as long as the underlying track and signalling layout hasn't changed), though even if they aren't this can be solved with a simple search-and-replace in the text editor of your choice. Same with regards to seeding points if signals have been renumbered in the new era. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 16:54 #151102 | |
ajax103
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Hap in post 151089 said:ajax103 in post 151088 said:I never said it was just a case of redrawing a simulation, all I said is simply that compared to the era that a simulation was set in and than released to the public that a lot has changed in real life with major remodelling having taken place.flabberdacks in post 151083 said:It isn't just a case of simply redrawing a sim with the visible changes, as I'm sure has already been said. You need the data, or would you rather have a simulation that's been guessed rather than accurate?Adding an era to an already-released sim isn't impossible, but it is a monstrous undertaking.Quote: For example, let's take London Bridge (just the station itself) which under the Thameslink Programme has been completely rebuilt so even if it was considered to rebuilt the simulation which is VERY unlikely, a LOT of work would be needed as it would have to be a completely new simulation including data research which including signalling plans etc as the eras on the simulation are very very different to what the area is currently like in real life. Meld in post 151091 said: I am very much aware of the complexity of timetable writing, as to your comment about modern era ones that haven't been tested fully well that doesn't just apply to them as there are quite a few timetables that look rushed and amateurish while there are indeed some that actually look professional and indeed have been tested as much as possible. I've seen timetables that I've really enjoyed and others which I've really not enjoyed. Again, I never said anything about it being easy to just add another era, all I commented on was the fact that I can think of 7 sims which would require a LOT of work IF any updates were considered. Log in to reply |
Update to West Hampstead Sim 08/04/2023 at 17:45 #151103 | |
bill_gensheet
![]() 1357 posts |
Hap in post 151089 said:Does it have to be that black and white ? If say a sim author knows a timetable writer is in a position to produce a timetable for an older era, then the author might consider adding an era (or similar) if that just needs say a couple of yard entrances, and not to be too bothered if a point location cannot be proved down to the nearest 1m, or a signal number determined. Applying some reasonable estimation and normal interlocking principles gets the users an extra timetable or completes a wider chain set. Equally no current layout should be needing to use guesswork. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: ajax103, Dionysusnu |