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Crew Changes

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Crew Changes 16/08/2024 at 17:00 #158212
bugsy
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How many reasons are there for Crew Changes, what are they and are any of the obligatory?

Thanks. Bugsy

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Crew Changes 16/08/2024 at 17:54 #158214
jc92
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I dont quite understand the question? Real life or SimSig timetabling?

Drivers have diagrams which are planned according to contract and fatigue rules. Trains will often change crews where the first driver is either up on his hours before a PNB or is at the extent of his route knowledge. In some cases Drivers can only work so far one way before having a break and working something back within their full booked shift. Subject to the caveat that all companies have different T&Cs and planning rules, Drivers generally need a break every 5 hours of work and can only conduct safety critical work for 11 hours from booking on. Some companies are definetely more restrictive.

Do you mean when is a crew change activity added and why?

Generally speaking crew changes are shown on non passenger services which could depart early to force them to wait until the relief crew arrive and add the curveball when crew are delayed. Passenger services don't generally show crew changes as they're more punctual and adherent to the timetable.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Crew Changes 16/08/2024 at 19:26 #158215
bugsy
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jc92 in post 158214 said:
I dont quite understand the question? Real life or SimSig timetabling?

Drivers have diagrams which are planned according to contract and fatigue rules. Trains will often change crews where the first driver is either up on his hours before a PNB or is at the extent of his route knowledge. In some cases Drivers can only work so far one way before having a break and working something back within their full booked shift. Subject to the caveat that all companies have different T&Cs and planning rules, Drivers generally need a break every 5 hours of work and can only conduct safety critical work for 11 hours from booking on. Some companies are definetely more restrictive.

Do you mean when is a crew change activity added and why?

Generally speaking crew changes are shown on non passenger services which could depart early to force them to wait until the relief crew arrive and add the curveball when crew are delayed. Passenger services don't generally show crew changes as they're more punctual and adherent to the timetable.
Thanks for your reply.

The main reason that I asked is that in the current Doncaster Station sim that I'm playing, there is a crew change in the timetable which is due to take place at 19:17:00 but the driver, when he reaches the relevant location at approximately 17:38:00, phones to say that he is being held at a red signal. This implies that he is prepared to continue driving this particular service without the crew change.
Is this acceptable in real life and if not, should it also be unacceptable in the simulation?

Just interested, that's all.
.....


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Crew Changes 16/08/2024 at 19:54 #158216
9pN1SEAp
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The crew change is at Belmont Down Reception, not Down Decoy, isn't it?
Jamie S (JAMS)
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Crew Changes 16/08/2024 at 20:46 #158218
bugsy
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9pN1SEAp in post 158216 said:
The crew change is at Belmont Down Reception, not Down Decoy, isn't it?
Well so it is. That explains it.
What a silly mistake 🙄

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Crew Changes 17/08/2024 at 00:09 #158219
jc92
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In answer to your question anyway. If the driver contacts the signaller and says he's ready to move forwards, then IRL that's fine. The signaller isn't going to question ďiagrams and in some cases there are actually op stops in the timetable that aren't used anyway (but are in just in case) in which case the driver may well ring up and say he isn't being relieved.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Crew Changes 17/08/2024 at 08:32 #158221
kbarber
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In olden times it might also be the case that a driver was actually doing a job or part-job on overtime, so Control and Train Crew Supervisors would be liaising to arrange crew change locations 'on the fly'. Signalman wouldn't know about that going on, the most they'd ever hear would be a crew ringing in to ask where their train was (and if the change was adjacent to a train crew depot almost certainly the bobby would hear nothing at all). And you'd be amazed how quick a crew change could be when the forward driver was on a finishing turn!
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Crew Changes 17/08/2024 at 10:28 #158223
bill_gensheet
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My father told me of the opposite, a Euston - Glasgow overnight relief train that stopped on Crewe Independents for relief... but the crew had gone off and nobody turned up.

As dawn broke someone thought it worth working out why there was a passenger train sat on the Ind's.

Bill

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Crew Changes 17/08/2024 at 10:53 #158226
0D07
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I think the strangest place I have ever organised a crew change on the fly was Nobelthorpe Level Crossing at about 2 in the morning after an accident on the M62/M18 Junction stopped the job and the back roads came into play.

D07

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Crew Changes 17/08/2024 at 18:14 #158227
jc92
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kbarber in post 158221 said:
In olden times it might also be the case that a driver was actually doing a job or part-job on overtime, so Control and Train Crew Supervisors would be liaising to arrange crew change locations 'on the fly'. Signalman wouldn't know about that going on, the most they'd ever hear would be a crew ringing in to ask where their train was (and if the change was adjacent to a train crew depot almost certainly the bobby would hear nothing at all). And you'd be amazed how quick a crew change could be when the forward driver was on a finishing turn!
Things seem to be a bit more disciplined nowadays. In a fair number of locations its mandatory for a relieving driver to contact the box to advise they're in position, otherwise the train will be refused passage beyond a previous regulating point to avoid stopping the job. Landor Street and Nottingham Station are two that immediately spring to mind.

That said, in other locations where disruption is minimal or there is no "hold the train" option there is no phone call at all. Knottingley is a good example of that, although the box is advised of any revised relief arrangements at the control level anyway for info.

0D07 in post 158226 said:
I think the strangest place I have ever organised a crew change on the fly was Nobelthorpe Level Crossing at about 2 in the morning after an accident on the M62/M18 Junction stopped the job and the back roads came into play.

D07
Finningley Level crossing in the dead of night springs to mind as well?

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Crew Changes 18/08/2024 at 15:12 #158230
0D07
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jc92 in post 158227 said:
kbarber in post 158221 said:
In olden times it might also be the case that a driver was actually doing a job or part-job on overtime, so Control and Train Crew Supervisors would be liaising to arrange crew change locations 'on the fly'. Signalman wouldn't know about that going on, the most they'd ever hear would be a crew ringing in to ask where their train was (and if the change was adjacent to a train crew depot almost certainly the bobby would hear nothing at all). And you'd be amazed how quick a crew change could be when the forward driver was on a finishing turn!
Things seem to be a bit more disciplined nowadays. In a fair number of locations its mandatory for a relieving driver to contact the box to advise they're in position, otherwise the train will be refused passage beyond a previous regulating point to avoid stopping the job. Landor Street and Nottingham Station are two that immediately spring to mind.

That said, in other locations where disruption is minimal or there is no "hold the train" option there is no phone call at all. Knottingley is a good example of that, although the box is advised of any revised relief arrangements at the control level anyway for info.

0D07 in post 158226 said:
I think the strangest place I have ever organised a crew change on the fly was Nobelthorpe Level Crossing at about 2 in the morning after an accident on the M62/M18 Junction stopped the job and the back roads came into play.

D07
Finningley Level crossing in the dead of night springs to mind as well?
Only when its the "Grove" dont ya know and the ECML is blocked.

D07

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