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One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 21:44 #582 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Hi All, In the last few KX sessions I have had trains arriving at KX 45 mins late due to failures and the likes. This has ment that the next working of these units have been leavin KX still 20 - 30 mins late. So I was wondering would it be possible in sims to have some certain spare sets on sidings that are virtually unused. So if a train is considerably late the spare set can be put up for the next working to leave on time and correct the timetable. Then the late arriving train would be ran empty back to the siding as the spare train if needed again. I think this would be more realistic to in an MP as if there are clients controling the pannels as signallers then the host would be in the role of regulator. Alan. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 21:44 #6050 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Hi All, In the last few KX sessions I have had trains arriving at KX 45 mins late due to failures and the likes. This has ment that the next working of these units have been leavin KX still 20 - 30 mins late. So I was wondering would it be possible in sims to have some certain spare sets on sidings that are virtually unused. So if a train is considerably late the spare set can be put up for the next working to leave on time and correct the timetable. Then the late arriving train would be ran empty back to the siding as the spare train if needed again. I think this would be more realistic to in an MP as if there are clients controling the pannels as signallers then the host would be in the role of regulator. Alan. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 21:52 #6051 | |
JamesN
1608 posts |
You (host) could spawn a new train out of the sidings by creating a timetable for it - I often have some contingency TTs loaded with entry time set to 00:00 (they won't enter) then simply edit the entry time to make them appear and run to new TT once they're wherever they need to be.
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One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 21:56 #6052 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Unless I am mistaken or have missed something, this is entirely possible by simply having timetable writers creating a spare train to either enter at or be sent to a suitable location where it could be held until needed. If this spare train was never used then it could simply be timetabled to depart from the siding or 'holding location' and in the case of a siding it could just reverse and go back into the siding to terminate or in the case of a 'holding location' it could either run an actual service or it could go ECS to the siding/depot, Ultimately there is nothing I can think of that the SimSig developers could do apart from perhaps adding a spare siding for the spare train(s)...but that would be totally unrealistic. A reply from any timetable writers out there wouldn't go a miss. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 22:15 #6054 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
This is purely a timetable writing issue, and as is said above the user can create a timetable at anytime during play. In my 1977 KX TT there are some dummy trains which can be used for the purpose of getting you out of holes. I can't recall the details but things like getting a loco from one side of KX to the loco sidings (and vv) where the train is in the 'wrong' platform is one example. Or run a dummy to a siding/platform and hold it there for the duration with no next working- the real KX has a 4 car left at the top end of P8 quite regularly(mainly weekends) for that purpose. Note that a train timed to enter at 00.00 will enter, so maybe best to write a timetable with no entry and then simply add an entry time when required. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 22:20 #6056 | |
Chrisrail
384 posts |
I bet that a lot of the TOCs wish they had spare sets let alone spare sets at a handy location. Would it not be more realistic to have a telephone message to the box saying TRAIN CANCELLED AND Then get out of that one. Just a thought
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One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 22:34 #6058 | |
JamesN
1608 posts |
Peter Bennet said:No it won't enter, that's why all seed trains in Timetables have to be from 00:00h - see attatched screenshot. Can send you .WTT file if you're still unconvinced! :P Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 22:57 #6059 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
That's odd because I use 00.00 trains all the time in testing! Maybe it's only available in debuging. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 23:04 #6060 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
It does work on the KX release, have just run 4 trains from Hornsey to FP entering at 00.00 and one at Biggleswade to Hitchin. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 21/01/2010 at 23:25 #6061 | |
Noisynoel
989 posts |
I personally wouldn't add spare trains to my timetables because they usually don't exisit in reality. Having to step up stock, cancel, run fast is all part of the reality experience. As far as I am aware the only places in the UK that have a standby train is FGW at Bristol (A 150 is booked to sit there for most of the day, whether it happens in reality...) & XC 220 at New Street, however, this too doesn''t appear to have happened recently. It may be that some stock is berthed nearby 'between peaks' that, if you have a spare crew, could bu used, but this would be decided at the spur of the moment.
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One for the hosts or Solo play. 22/01/2010 at 10:43 #6064 | |
kbarber
1743 posts |
I think this could be a rather useful add-on if anybody wants to create it. It would be particularly handy for KX, where the 313 fleet is captive to the sim. It might also be useful for the forthcoming Euston, where it could monitor locos in the holding sidings. So far as I can see it would have to accept parameters relating to total size of the fleet and to where all the units were located at the start of the run. It would have to accept information from the present sim software by which it updated the sidings position as trains were signalled in & out. The information it could accept would need to include train formation (as shown in the timetable). For trains passing out of the sim area there might be circumstances where, again, it maintained a record (trains from KX running to Cambridge and either being stabled there or returning - there would be no need to link it with the diagrams, all it would need is to record the total). It would also need to accept parameters for units on maintenance - not every unit in sidings would be available, but as the afternoon wore on some might be released to traffic early, therefore allowing substitution & stepping up. Better yet, some units might be released late from maintenance, leading to short-formed trains. So an enhancement would be to feed timetable amendments (current game only) so that dividing trains couldn't and the signalman had to decide which half of a dividing train should run. The module could then maintain a running total of what was available for use. In the peaks I would expect that to be a very round figure. But off-peak there would be likely to be some spares. Yet another enhancement if such a module existed is that, even if stock were available, there wouldn't always be a crew; a % figure might perhaps be set to decide how often substitution would be possible. There would need to be some kind of display available so the operator could see the disposition of stock/locos - and preferably how it compared with the plan. This would certainly require feeding from the sim software; perhaps the development team could comment on whther the necessary outputs are (or could/would be made) available. In later stages it would also need to feed back into the present software, probably an order of magnitude more difficult? Again, developer comments needed. Going back to earlier posts, it would need some kind of timetabling facility so that ECS moves could be created but run only as required, perhaps using a spare function key to input Control instructions? (Are F6 and up available for use?) This would be a fairly large project in itself for someone. But if it could be managed it would offer the beginnings of Control facilities, particularly useful for hosts of MP games but a good way of inducing nervous breakdowns in solo games too I suspect. Any thoughts anyone? Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 22/01/2010 at 13:11 #6068 | |
JamesN
1608 posts |
F6 is the Telephone, F7 The incident log, F8 unused, F9 unused, F10 messaging in multiplayer, F11 is reserved, F12 is unused. Personally, I don't think that any added cheats are needed to make it work, In the rare event that I do need more stock (only ever had to do it on KX) I simply generate an ECS working from either Hornsey or Welwyn (both of which have spare stock all day) to wherever I want the train to pick up timetable, then run to another timetable. Then I either stable the original portion, or run it Empty until it's back close to normal time and stable the spare, ensuring I put it back where it came from! Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 22/01/2010 at 15:13 #6074 | |
clive
2789 posts |
KBarber: it's an interesting idea, but it would be a really major piece of work at this stage. That's because SimSig is basically train based rather than rolling stock based. A train has a length, acceleration and braking characteristics, and motive power, but that's about all. There's no concept of the components it is built out of (that's why there are separate "divide" and "drop loco" activities in timetables). However, one piece of good news for you. The core code has recently been updated to have the idea of a depot capacity, so you can't get an infinite number of trains out of a depot, or keep sending trains into the depot without ever running out of storage space. It will be up to sim authors to decide what use to make of this feature. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 22/01/2010 at 16:14 #6076 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Adding to KBarbers posibitlities, a softerware design like this would also open possibilities for train failures where the failed set must be taken out of service and a new set put up in its place. This would then make the SimSig experience a whole lot more realistic. Alan Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 22/01/2010 at 20:14 #6085 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
If you really wanted to bring in ECS, wouldn't it just be easier to write a quick WTT for it as and when, rather than writing more coding?
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 23/01/2010 at 22:12 #6118 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
I was just thinking this over and despite my previous reply, I am wondering if this would be something that the developers could include. What I am trying to say is that with a train delayed the player (in solo) or the host (in multiplay) could phone up the nearest place with available stock (i.e: Bounds Green or Hornsey TMDs on KingsX) and there could be some kind of dialogue like "Train 2V01 is delayed, could you send a spare train to cover the next working" and then, perhaps using some form of percentage availability of trains spare then they could either reply "Yes, a new train will be ready in five minutes" or "No, there are currently no spare trains to cover the service". Let us say that this happened on KingsX at around 1pm, the last time I checked First Capital Connect's new Class 321s are only currently used mostly during peak hours (except the 11.55 from Cambridge which is diagrammed to be a Class 321) and they tend to store most of if not all of the Class 321 fleet at Hornsey ready to run ECS to KingsX via the Up Goods. First Capital Connect have been known to run Class 317s in place of a Class 313 (I should know as I had the pleasure of travelling on it) on rare occasions..and yes the Class 317 stopped at all stations from KingsX to WelwynGC. So I don't believe that there is anything stopping this being run by a Class 321 spare from Hornsey that could just cover the one working then run ECS back to Hornsey TMD. In-fact last I checked there is the 17.27* and 18.57** service from London KX to Welwyn GC which is shown in the TT to have 4 carriages (Class 313s only have 3 carriages) - I know for a fact that it is currently diagrammed to be a Class 321 although I have seen it worked by a Class 317 and perhaps also a Class 365 too. Just an idea really. * = Calling at Finsbury Park (17.33), New Southgate (17.38), Oakleigh Park (17.41), New Barnet (17.43), Potters Bar (17.49), Hatfield (17.55) and Welwyn GC (18.00) ** = Calling at Finsbury Park (19.03), New Southgate (19.08), Oakleigh Park (19.11), New Barnet (19.13), Hadley Wood (19.16), Potters Bar (19.20), Hatfield (19.27) and Welwyn GC (19.32) Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 25/01/2010 at 12:42 #6157 | |
kbarber
1743 posts |
Thanks Clive, that's a useful start. I suppose what I had in mind was an entirely separate module - a sim in itself if you like, except running it as a standalone sim would make the drying of paint look rather fun! However, if suitably interfaced with Simsig it would then provide Control functionality, hence my questions about what outputs/inputs Simsig has or can sensibly be given. My next idea was that such a module might be developed by someone (or a group) who've asked about becoming developers, a semi-independent group who could tackle that kind of functionality. With the depot capacity option the features needed would be rather less but it still might make a nice project for someone, particularly with the possibility of interfacing phone and incident messages. Thanks for the listing of F key availability. Clearly I need to play more & work less :rolleyes: Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 25/01/2010 at 14:01 #6162 | |
clive
2789 posts |
There isn't a generic interface that could be used unchanged, but what comes to mind as a possibility is making your Depot Manager look like a chained simulation at each depot entrance and exit. This would have to be added to each simulation that wanted to make use of the idea. From memory, all that currently goes across is train ID, speed, length, and whether it's running with loss of power, but if this became a go-er then other things could be added. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 25/01/2010 at 16:29 #6173 | |
20001
10 posts |
clive said:There isn't a generic interface that could be used unchanged, but what comes to mind as a possibility is making your Depot Manager look like a chained simulation at each depot entrance and exit. This would have to be added to each simulation that wanted to make use of the idea. So, as previous posters have put, it could theoretically function as a basic TOC/FOC control desk? Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 25/01/2010 at 18:13 #6176 | |
Gloriousnse
20 posts |
UKTrainMan said:First Capital Connect have been known to run Class 317s in place of a Class 313 (I should know as I had the pleasure of travelling on it) on rare occasions..and yes the Class 317 stopped at all stations from KingsX to WelwynGC. So I don't believe that there is anything stopping this being run by a Class 321 spare from Hornsey that could just cover the one working then run ECS back to Hornsey TMD.You're okay as long as the return working isn't going to Moorgate. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 26/01/2010 at 02:27 #6190 | |
leigh
51 posts |
In Sydney, on the current timetable anyway, we do have "standby sets" that are available to replace late or cancelled trains. In the AM peak there is 1 dedicated set standby, and in the PM peak there are 2 sets available. There are also a couple more sets during the day off peak available. All these sets are fully crewed incase they need to be used. In reality there may be 1 or 2 more sets around the network from the maintenance pool that are available for use, but this would vary based on maitenance requirements each day. I would imagine this maintenance pool variation would exist in the UK as well. The biggest problem is that there is no way to know how many (if any) sets are available each day. In the previous version of KX I built in the timetable the provision for upto 2 x 6 car standby sets to be made available from the maintenance pool, but timetabled using the percentage run feature, so that I got a random availability each time I played it. From memory, it was something like - run 5X80 (6 car set) runs at 40% likelyhood, then using a rule that said if 5X80 runs 5X90 won't, then run 5X90 (3 car set) runs at 80% likelyhood. This still leaves a chance that no cars are available and you get no standby. I repeated the above process for the 2nd standby and positioned the sets at Hornsey Rev Sdg or Gordon Hill (depending on era and timetable requirements). Effectively, I then had either:- - 2 x 6 car standby sets - 1 x 6 car & 1 x 3 car standby sets - 2 x 3 car standby sets - No standby sets To make it just a little bit harder, I then imposed some rules on the game, such as:- - If a train reports "running with loss of power" it had to be sent back to the maintenance depot at the conclusion of its current run (to be replace by a standby). - If a train reports mechanical or similar trouble, and is delayed by between 10-20 minutes, it can continue to operate its run, but at some stage (usually outside the peak) be sent to a depot for inspection (replaced by a standby). - If a train reports mechnical or similar trouble and stands for more than 20 mins (rare but sometimes happened), it was to be cancelled as a passenger run (and once the train was "fixed" and moving again, go empty to the depot for further repairs (replaced by a standby). - In all cases, after arrival at the depot, it could return as a standby after 2 hours. This variation gave the game some added excitement, because while the standbys made it easier, the breakdowns gave some added heartache sending standbys out to replace the trains. And on those occasions when no standbys were available (or a longer distance set that didn't have a standby setup failed, like a HST) the above rules would still apply, but that's where stepping up stock or making alternate arrangements added an extra layer to the caos. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 26/01/2010 at 06:30 #6194 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
leigh said:In the previous version of KX I built in the timetable the provision for upto 2 x 6 car standby sets to be made available from the maintenance pool, but timetabled using the percentage run feature, so that I got a random availability each time I played it.Wow! What 'leigh' has said above sounds just about perfect and doesn't require the additional work load for the developers. I'd love to see TT writers follow the above as closely as possible as it sounds perfect and I can see no reason why it couldn't work. That said, I would wonder why the trains couldn't just be held at the exit from Hornsey until required or perhaps reversed at Harringay REV SDG. I would appreciate others opinions on what leigh said and I look forward to seeing a response from afro09 about it too. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 26/01/2010 at 18:01 #6217 | |
afro09
167 posts |
leigh, Your Timetable is exactly at what I was aiming for when I started this thread. And the extra added rules about when a train should be replaced and ran into depot's is also an excellent Idea making it whole lot more realistic. Alan. Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 28/01/2010 at 19:51 #6264 | |
Mickster66
84 posts |
If we are to make the simulation as near to real as possible, the idea of having strategically placed empty sets does not hold water. The problem is one of resources - both in rolling stock provision and in traincrew. Such as idea would be extremely wasteful. Leaving aside the limited availability of rolling stock, the rostering of traincrew only allows for sufficient drivers to be on duty for the work to be performed on a given day. Gone are the days when messroom were full of spare drivers! Log in to reply |
One for the hosts or Solo play. 28/01/2010 at 20:01 #6265 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Mick, Ok sets being strtegically placed is not realistic but certainly sets spare in a depot is! And there is a certain amount of spare drivers on each rostered shift and there is allways a spare set or 2 floating around to cover the possibillity of a train failure. So having the way leigh has done his TT which does limit the available resources using TT rules does make It realistic. Alan. Log in to reply |