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| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 25/01/2010 at 21:07 #603 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Hi All, One thing is really bothering me!!! Is SimSig designed to be a hobby and for enjoyment, or A system to create prossional signallers where every rule in the signalling rule book is followed? Just after the evening rush hour in the 24 hour game last night there was TCF on the up slow line south of Welwyn Garden City which the overlap blocked the points from the plt 3 & plt 4 flyover onto the slow line. At the time there was a train sitting at WGC plt3 to Moorgate and I sujested wrong road working from WGC to Potters Bar where the train could then be sent onto the correct line rather than having to abandon the TT, reverse the train direction twice, reinstall the TT then talk the train passed a signal at danger accross the TCF. When I made this suggestion i had an number of people barate me and slag me and a number of quote's from the rule book thrown at me for even thinking of using wrong road working. As I explained then In the game that the UK and Irish track circuts, signalling systems, signalling rules, train protection systems and reasons for when wrong road working would be allowed are different but still got put down and demoralised. At this present time to me it seems to me you need to know the UK signalling rule book inside out to use SimSig. Therefore I am Seriously considering not hosting games anymore, or even using SimSig at all. Alan. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 25/01/2010 at 21:07 #6179 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Hi All, One thing is really bothering me!!! Is SimSig designed to be a hobby and for enjoyment, or A system to create prossional signallers where every rule in the signalling rule book is followed? Just after the evening rush hour in the 24 hour game last night there was TCF on the up slow line south of Welwyn Garden City which the overlap blocked the points from the plt 3 & plt 4 flyover onto the slow line. At the time there was a train sitting at WGC plt3 to Moorgate and I sujested wrong road working from WGC to Potters Bar where the train could then be sent onto the correct line rather than having to abandon the TT, reverse the train direction twice, reinstall the TT then talk the train passed a signal at danger accross the TCF. When I made this suggestion i had an number of people barate me and slag me and a number of quote's from the rule book thrown at me for even thinking of using wrong road working. As I explained then In the game that the UK and Irish track circuts, signalling systems, signalling rules, train protection systems and reasons for when wrong road working would be allowed are different but still got put down and demoralised. At this present time to me it seems to me you need to know the UK signalling rule book inside out to use SimSig. Therefore I am Seriously considering not hosting games anymore, or even using SimSig at all. Alan. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 25/01/2010 at 21:19 #6180 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
At the end of the day, you are the host.It's YOUR game, YOUR rules apply, if people are not happy with that then you don't have to have them in YOUR game.
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 25/01/2010 at 21:24 #6181 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
It's designed to be as accurate as possible but given it's an IECC platform and most of the Sims replicate NX boxes there will be compromises. As to how you use it that's entirely up to you. It does seem to me that if you are hosting a game then it's reasonable that 'your' rules prevail; equally if somone else is hosting then their 'rules' prevail. Having said that some tolerance of views/experience etc. seems appropriate regardless of what 'rules' are being followed. It's all really a matter of common sense and general courtesy. Maybe hosts need to add a 'experience' note to they session to indicate how serious the game will be. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 25/01/2010 at 22:35 #6182 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
I have to side with Alan on this one. While I wouldn't have dealt with it the way he wanted to, he was the host and therefore in charge. There was another incident earlier when the 2 TCFs brought KX and approaches to a standstill. There was a train stuck in P10 (or maybe P11) which could, theoretically, have been talked past the TCF and sent on its way. Much debate ensued, with extensive perusal of the rule books and reference to pilotmen, sectional appendices and potential disciplinary action should the train proceed before it was decided it would stay put until the TCF was cleared. This amateur signaller, with little or no access to the rule book, would have had the affected passengers sipping on weak tea as they whizzed past Welwyn long before the conclusion was reached. Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 25/01/2010 at 23:33 #6183 | |
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Tallington
254 posts |
Before too many jump in on this one can I point out that there may well be 544 views (as of 23:00 tonight)! Alan's gut feeling is correct but Peter Bennett's 'It's all really a matter of common sense and general courtesy.' is really the best way to allow the 'argument' and further games to progress. Host's are all going to learn by this thread, that there are unexpected things that will crop up (and usually at the busiest time!) It is called experience and some people are paid a lot of money because they have had these 'experiences' and learnt from them. Yes, it is a real life jungle out there and we all like to think we are king of it (well I do  ) and late at night, some intemperate things may be said OR as it is colloquially known, you have the book thrown at you!Personally, I haven't a clue about ANY of the rules; and I am sure the majority of us are similarly ignorant of them. However SimSig is a game to some BUT 'true to life' realism to others. As that is how the SimSig system has been built, then some of that ethos needs to be respected 'much' of the time. And, just like any other 'game' we might play, we ought to learn the rules (sooner or later) rather than make them up as we go along. It is obvious lots of you are enjoying each others company on a regular basis - fantastic; so if the rules are relaxed more then, when mates are playing - so be it. As has been suggested earlier, it might be that a simple 'warning' be given in the Notification that the session will be 'to the book' or 'relaxed' depending on the HOST's preference that time. Or when situations arise during a game, that information is repeated so that all participants know. Either way, we are all learning from your experiences and thank you. SimSig is benefiting from the new blood (slowly but surely) and we all need to continue together to improve things for everyone, gamers and traditionalists. Please bear in mind that many timetables and tracks are set up for 'by the book' running and it would be ironic if developers time was spent trying to fit in every eventuality - nothing would ever see the light of day. Remember - There is nothing to stop anyone (or everyone) trying the moves out in single user mode to see if it works. In the middle of an intensive game with varying levels of ability (and people like me, lurking to see how its done) is perhaps not the best time. Certainly, when we get down to serious debugging of new sims or older refreshed ones in multi-player environments (like at meets) then it couldn't possibly be condoned. Hope this helps a little. Game on..... Ken (also now older and wiser - well I think so!) Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 00:12 #6184 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Thanks Ken for the very elaborate response. And yes Ken I agree with you that maybe in the midle of a Multiplayer game is not the best place to try new things. But as I explained last night that in Ireland and many other countries wrong road working is one of the possible options allowed in the rule book to get out of the situation we were in. But it was because there was a UK 'real life' Signaller in the game and the way I suggested wasn't allowed in his rule book that the argument and the abuse I got started. I thought as mentioned many times in the forum that we are all here to learn each other because of the Different levels of experience and different nationallities. And last night was a chance for people to see one of the possible ways the Irish Railways would have delt with that situation compared to the UK ways, and for example the Austrailians and the Americans would also have had different ways than me or the UK signaller in question. Hence this is why I wrote and feel afro09 said: At this present time to me it seems to me you need to know the UK signalling rule book inside out to use SimSig. Therefore I am Seriously considering not hosting games anymore, or even using SimSig at all.Alan. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 01:56 #6189 | |
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razgriz33
42 posts |
Just putting my 2 pence in: If i had to sit and read through the rulebook for signalling i wouldnt even bother with SimSig, I'm a complete amatuer and do this for fun, i dont even care for score. i just do this as well as i can and if i mess up so what i know i can fix it with help from the others even if it isnt strictly the correct way to do it. At the end of the day the host controlls the game much like the captain of a ship. it works best when the crew knows the rules but that isnt to say they can't have some sneaky rum and a laugh along the way. loosen up don't worry about being as close to the real thing as possible. We have pilots on our servers but one i know personally hates thinking about all the realism. to summarise, why bother with something so insignificant when we want to just have fun Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 09:27 #6197 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
I was never told to read the real life rule books in-order to play SimSig - I did however take it upon myself to self-train myself by reading the help file in full but still no mention at all in there about either a) reading not even one single rule book or b) what do to during certain circumstances, i.e: track circuit failures. If I was meant to read the real life rule books and know them fully before being let lose upon a simulation then clearly there is a breakdown in communications, rules or instructions somewhere since this is the very first time I have heard this. I recall reading many times before that "SimSig is for your personal entertainment only" (or something of similar wording) - here is a particular definition I found for "Entertainment"; Quote: Entertainment is an event, performance, or activity designed to give pleasure to an audience (although, for example, in the case of a computer game the "audience" may be only one person). The audience may participate in the entertainment passively as in watching opera or actively as in computer games.and another definition I found is; Quote: entertaining - Being very amusingand personally I find that (as long as all safety features are correctly used, the appropriate protection is enabled, alternative arrangements can be and have been made for other trains and all signallers involved have come to an full & complete understanding of the situation) sending a train wrong road for a couple of stations until it reaches a point at where it can be signalled via a signal (be it aspect signals or shunt signals) to resume normal working is amusing - to a certain extent. It is a rare move in any SimSig simulation and probably a rare move in real life too. Since playing SimSig apparently requires the rule book to be followed, there is the rule requiring that when a train is running wrong road, the driver sounds the horn repeatedly with a series of short blasts as a warning so you cannot say that is it unsafe ... at least not until safety is breached (and which point, the signaller on that panel would be relieved from duty). And before anyone tries to 'trip me up here', I really couldn't care less about any other rules that may prevent the wrong road working from being used - put it down to yet more poor training! I do recall reading elsewhere that you shouldn't always worry about the score so much. Everyone should bear in mind the saying "each to their own" - everyone has a different way of doing things and that must be respected. If I want to cancel auto routes on signals for my panel (*cough*) so that I have to manually set each one then so be it and if the host of a multiplayer game wants to send a train wrong road then so be it. Out if interest, I did a bit of experimenting and created two trains from Welwyn Carriage sidings, one being a 100mph EMU and the other being a 75mph EMU. Locked all the required the points, arranged for protection via various methods (Emergency buttons, signal collars, etc) Sent the 100mph EMU wrong road (via the Down Fast instead of the Up Fast) to Potters Bar. Sent the 75mph EMU wrong road (via the Down Slow instead of the Up Slow) to Potters Bar. Both trains went along at 30mph before stopping in their respective platforms at Potters Bar where both of them call me from the Shunt Signal and returned to normal working. This experiment can only suggest to me that there is coding within SimSig itself or at least within SimSig KingsX for wrong road working ("Bang Road" as others call it) in that the train does not exceed 30mph (and no I didn't set up their respective TT's with a 30mph speed limit, they had the correct speed limit for the unit used). So to conclude this post... There are many different people here on this fine community from real life signallers who must know the rule book in order to do their job to those down to earth and slightly more relaxed who find SimSig enjoyable and/or entertaining for their own personal use and so naturally there may be differences of opinions however as has been said many times before, in the case of a hosted game the host can make any decision that they wish and this includes wrong road working! Am I now left wondering and even worrying that this whole matter could end up splitting the normally decent SimSig community into two sub-groups; The Professionals & The Wannabes. If this happens then I can see games being hosted differently too with "The Professionals" hosting games for themselves only and "The Wannabes" also doing the same. Before this does happen (and I would hope that that it doesn't!), I would point out that not only would it be totally un-community spirited but it is easily avoidable. Those real life signallers out there who want a professional game of SimSig should host their own session privately via PM to those other professional signallers that they wish to invite to join them. Also, those same real life signallers could also host public games where those who may not be real life signallers could join it - but the real life signallers will have to bear in mind their skill level and knowledge at all times. For all you know they could be multiplay virgins! I shouldn't have to say this but there are varying age groups, abilities (and quite possibly unknown disabilities!!) and nationalities among us so this should always be beared in mind. On a final note, I think the way afro09 was treated in the game is a disgrace (and I don't just say that because me and him happen to be good friends - who met through SimSig) and I believe that some people need to take a step back and think about their comments made during the game. I remind you all that he volunteered his time (and Internet connection, electricity, etc, etc) and effort into hosting the session the 24hr session at the root of this thread but some people out there seem ungrateful of this. I am fully behind him on his suggestion and [as I was the Welwyn signaller at the time] would have happily sent the train wrong road to Potters Bar (with appropriate notification given, understanding with and authorisation from the signaller on Palace panel). - END - [sup]P.S: Sorry for such a long post - I guess I have a lot to say about the matter.[/sup] Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 10:05 #6199 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Well said, could not have put it better myself. Have added a little bit about RULES in the main item, and NO, I'm not a signaler, just someone with a long time interest in the history of railway signaling. Dave M Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 13:21 #6210 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
UKTrainMan said:Out if interest, I did a bit of experimenting and created two trains from Welwyn Carriage sidingsThat's correct. In the core code, wherever the simulation author has not created specific bidirectional track, all lines can be used in the "wrong" direction with the same electrification and goods line status, complementary gradients, and a speed limit of 30mph or that of the right direction, whichever is smaller. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 13:32 #6211 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Okay: not an official statement on the topic, just my personal opinion ... SimSig is a game. Do whatever you want to enjoy it. There's been times at the meets where one people in one sim have deliberately tried to set problems for those in a chained sim, just for fun (and, yes, they reciprocate). Nobody requires you to read any rulebooks or obey any particular rules other than those coded into the game logic. (Beware: this could easily turn into a lecture on my law degree dissertation.) If you want to manage things by Irish rules, or French rules, or Martian rules, feel free. However, in a multiplayer game it's only polite to ensure that everyone knows where they stand. The host should be the person who makes the final decision on such matters, just as they're the one who decides what timetable and what scenario, because they have the controls to let them do that. If they want to run by strict 1953 GWR rules, that's their prerogative. If the other players don't like that, they can try to persuade or they can leave the game. But, having said that, if you're doing anything out of the ordinary, please let other people know at the start. Even if a game is using "modern UK rules", that doesn't mean you have to have read all the books. Most people here are friendly and will happily answer questions when asked. I would expect the average multiplayer game to be run in an informal manner. I wouldn't find "extensive perusal of the rulebooks" fun in the middle of a game, though others may disagree (or, because they do this for a living as well, already know the answers). Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 14:23 #6214 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
clive said:Forgot about that; example was in July meet (BETAs of Euston and Willesden DC lines chained) Euston operators kept sending Freight trains up the DC lines- so we f2 reversed them and sent them backwards (wrong line) to Euston. All great fun as we drunk in the 'box' and not a rule book in sight. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 16:23 #6216 | |
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Gloriousnse
20 posts |
Hiya Alan, I think i'd left your game by that point so i'm sorry to hear you were "got at" later on - thank you for putting in the effort to host it and it would be a great shame if you didn't do any more. Right - that said, Personal viewpoint here: What attracts me to SimSig is the realism, so whilst I agree totally it's just a game and of no real-life consequence, some semblence of real operating methods is important to me. From the sounds of the problem in this case I think my call would have been to ask for the shunt move & then talk the train through the TCF just because you can do that within & protected by the signalling system and on a busy 4-track railway that sounds less risky than having to protect and cover the implications of the other move! BUT My viewpoint when i'm playing multiplayer (and admittedly i've not been doing it that long) is that we're supposedly in the control centre, we're working the desks and our host is our supervisor/manager - if we have a problem that we can't easily solve, or maybe one impacting beyond our desk, or he even wants to make a tactical move that we don't understand yet then he's the guy that gets the final say on what happens. Just like "real life" we're then entitled to our view privately on whether those calls are right or not, and we may or may not question them, but the bottom line is he's the boss. Where we do need to remember it's a game though is in our dealings with each other - if your boss makes a call you don't agree with in real life you might feel like yelling at them, that'll be the time to remember this is just a game! There isn't really any call for that here, this isn't life or death. And at the end of the game it's all over & done with until next time either way, gone and in the past. None of us have to worry about the SimRAIB turning up to do an investigation. 
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| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 22:11 #6221 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts 
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It was 1 Freight and 2 HSTs Peter - I was on the panel at Camden :P Personally I enjoy SimSig for it's realism, and so play and host by the real rules as I happen to know them quite well. But there are times when I like to have fun aswell, as Peter intimated to in his description of events the March meet. (July was 3 Bridges and Cambridge) To the incident in question, I've heard points of view from both sides of the argument from players and observers of the game, and for a starter I don't think anyone was being ungrateful. It seems to me as if there were some very knowledgeable people who saw runnign wrong road as an overly disruptive course of action, when trains could have quite easily been reversed North of the station, for example. Everyone in a SimSig game works to cause as little disruption as possible, and closing a whole track probably didn't seem to them the best way of dealing with the problem. That said, I agree with the sentiments of Peter, Clive et al in that it is ALWAYS the host's decision, although as host I would always, if it were available, seek a professional/expert opinion in areas where I'm unsure. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 22:46 #6222 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
James, Your missing the point here, there was never a question about accepting advice or there being a vast amount of knowledge in the game. And yes you may host dirrently to me because you know the signalling rules quite well and "Wrong road working" would not be allowed. But the point I am trying to get accross is that I Know the signalling rules but the rules I know are The Irish 'Iranrod Eireann' rules which in the situation we were in "Wrong road Working" would have been allowed, especcially on a 4 line setup as the Down Fast would have been protected by signal for WRW before Potters bar, and the Down Slow still would have been available for rail traffic travelling in that direction. So my point is, Why did I get the abuse I got for not following rules, when I acctually was following the rule book, just not the book the professional signallers in the game have to work from. Alan. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 26/01/2010 at 23:49 #6225 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts
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Because the players in the game (understandably IMHO) didn't think they were playing to the Irish Rule Book perhaps? Just a wild stab in the dark...
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| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 27/01/2010 at 01:30 #6227 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
I never stated we were playing to any rule book
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| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 27/01/2010 at 06:38 #6228 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Keep it constrctive... Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 27/01/2010 at 09:04 #6231 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
SimSig is a tool. How you use that tool is up to you as the host, but the recurring theme on here is that you, as host, must tell the clients what is expected of them. Finally, one cannot expect all the clients to know all the rules so some leeway has to be given.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 27/01/2010 at 10:07 #6234 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
To which I would add "there's no excuse for rudeness and abuse".
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| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 27/01/2010 at 12:46 #6237 | |
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razgriz33
42 posts |
clive said:To which I would add "there's no excuse for rudeness and abuse".have to agree with that, it's still that fundamental issue. if you arn't flexible and easy how are you supposed to enjoy yourself so theres no need to be rude or abuse the guy thats taken the time and rescources to host your game! its just courtesy not just in SimSig but anything Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 27/01/2010 at 13:01 #6240 | |
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derbybest
274 posts |
Hi all Just to put my thoughts in on this one. First there are not that many real signallers that host as i can see although those who do are good at this. The other people who host may not have any signalling experience whatever (including myself) but try to run the sims as they see it and try to sorrt out the various problems that come up as they see it.. Ok some work and some don't but at least they are trying. At the end of the day the sims are only a game (although realistic) and situations will happen. Ask yourselves how many times you have started a tt then so far in scrapped it because you8 have made so many errors. Hosting sims to the rules takes experience and so people not used to much hosting will learn from this. I agree with signalmen pointing out what should be done but it is up to the host to take this advice or not and if people are not happy with this theyt should leave the game. Please remember the host is in charge at the end of the day. Right now thats off my chest congrats to afro for being brave enough to host a 24 hour session. Chris Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 28/01/2010 at 14:03 #6256 | |
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Mikey
15 posts |
I have to add to this, so I will. Firstly, don't be disheartened by the events of recent days. Alan, you have shown yourself as a good host, able to keep the wheels turning and allocating the panels fairly and I think this community, which I have recently rejoined, would surely want to see you host again and again. I admit to be a bit rulesy in a few of the sessions, but I was trying to add to debate about procedures used in the UK. I apologise for any offence that may have been caused. SimSig is a game, but I sometimes get a little too involved in it that I get carried away with it and get a little too professional. Perhaps we can assume imaginary pilotmen posted if the desire takes us that way. As far as how others play SimSig, it is entirely up to the individuals. I can't stop someone from making dodgy wrong direction moves that wouldn't be made in real life under the circumstances. If someone wants guidance on how something is done in real life, then I can give that guidance. The host has the final say (as said earlier), as to what rules, if any are applied and (GULP!) can kick people off their server if need be. With that thought in mind, I will try to be a bit more relaxed in future. Log in to reply |
| SimSig, a Hobby or a Professional system? 28/01/2010 at 16:20 #6258 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Mikey, Yes we have been involved in some heated debates over the past few weeks, but these debates have shown me how different situations are handled in so many different countries around the world and I enjoy learnning new things all the time. As for example in the most recent game we had a little debate about the old belling system used by local cabins in days gone past, and you were able to advise me of the code for 'Police Attention Urgently Needed' which I had forgoten. Alos the pilotman debate with TRC666 in the 24 game when KX was down to 4 platforms. When we pointed out that the shunt disc was giving the road onto plt 11 he then realised that what we were saying was true that for the train on plt 11 to leave it would have required a pilotman. And I think in the debates I have pointed out to you some different ways the same situation is handled on the opposite sides of the pond (Irish Sea). It was comments from a certain individual that was very down grading that spured me to write this thread so that no other host are treated in the same manner. Alan. Log in to reply |