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| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 28/08/2017 at 19:42 #101306 | |
VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Whilst testing the new Peterborough 1977 timetable I came to the conclusion that I didn't seem to understand how Custom Dwell Times Crew Change was actually working in practice, so I ran a series of test trains in a test timetable with interesting results. a) When trains are early or on time, traincrew available at the booked time (or earlier) and with no custom crew change time specified, everything seems to work as you would expect. b) When the train is late, the following happens - in all cases I used the Peterborough sim, with ARS switched off and the traincrew available for the scheduled departure time. Train ran southbound UFL/P2/UFL with the route set through the platform and out the other side so the train was able to proceed when ready. The train was held at New England to make it significantly late. i) 2 min custom dwell time for crew change shown, no station dwell time shown, crew change ticked and the train scheduled in the timetable to be in P2 0022/00C24. Train stops at 00:39:14 and moves at 00:39:44 i.e. 30 seconds, which I assume is the default dwell time. ii) 2 min station dwell time shown for Peterborough in the Timetable Trip Editor Box, no custom dwell time for crew relief shown, crew change ticked, booked time in P2 0022/00C24. Train stops 00:40:40, moves at 00:42:40 i.e. 2 mins. iii) No station dwell time shown, no custom crew change dwell time shown - train scheduled 0022/00C24. Train stops 00:38:27 and moves 00:38:57 i.e 30 seconds again. (iv) No station dwell times shown and a normal station stop without traincrew relief. Train scheduled 0022/0030 i.e 8 mins stop. Train arrives 00:40:22, moves 00:40:52 i.e. 30 seconds again. (v) If a train arrived on-time, with a 2 min Station dwell entered the train is 2 mins late away as the 2 mins seems to be added onto the default traincrew relief time From all of this, especially (i) above, I deduce that putting a time in the custom crew change dwell time box doesn't seem to make any difference, the default dwell time seems to prevail. Also irrespective of whether a train takes traincrew relief or not, the default dwell time of 30 seconds prevails if its running late. It looks to mean that in creating timetables that can be used under heavily disrupted conditions, a custom station dwell time needs to be set since in my view 30 seconds is not long enough for any type of non-commuter train to perform station duties, especially on a busy station. There's also a high probability that I've totally got the wrong end of the stick with all of this and have misunderstood the whole dwell time issue. Can anyone help me understand this? Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 28/08/2017 at 23:51 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 29/08/2017 at 07:50 #101325 | |
Jan
906 posts |
VInce in post 101306 said:Also irrespective of whether a train takes traincrew relief or not, the default dwell time of 30 seconds prevails if its running late. It looks to mean that in creating timetables that can be used under heavily disrupted conditions, a custom station dwell time needs to be set since in my view 30 seconds is not long enough for any type of non-commuter train to perform station duties, especially on a busy station. Don't forget that you can also override this value per train type as well and don't have to do it individually in each timetable (unless you have a particularly busy station as you say). Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 29/08/2017 at 08:55 #101326 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Jan in post 101325 said:VInce in post 101306 said:Thanks - yes that's global figure, isn't it as opposed to a "by station" figure like the one in Timetable Trip Editor box.Also irrespective of whether a train takes traincrew relief or not, the default dwell time of 30 seconds prevails if its running late. It looks to mean that in creating timetables that can be used under heavily disrupted conditions, a custom station dwell time needs to be set since in my view 30 seconds is not long enough for any type of non-commuter train to perform station duties, especially on a busy station. I remember when I was in the early days of re-writing Peter's timetable for version 4.1 that caused me a lot of grief. I spent ages trying to work out why Class 2 trains from Huntingdon were losing time until I twigged that they were all spending 3 minutes in each station and I'd inadvertently set the custom station time for DMUs to be 3 minutes! It would be useful too since when adding a station dwell time the "w" over-rides the "C" and its not clear which trains get relief apart from the information in the message window. I wonder if that will work for freight trains taking relief at non-station locations? I feel another test train coming on! Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 29/08/2017 at 08:59 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 29/08/2017 at 10:32 #101329 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
VInce in post 101326 said:Jan in post 101325 said:To which the answer is - yes it does, so I wonder how a "station" is defined in the context of "station forward" dwell time.VInce in post 101306 said:Thanks - yes that's global figure, isn't it as opposed to a "by station" figure like the one in Timetable Trip Editor box.Also irrespective of whether a train takes traincrew relief or not, the default dwell time of 30 seconds prevails if its running late. It looks to mean that in creating timetables that can be used under heavily disrupted conditions, a custom station dwell time needs to be set since in my view 30 seconds is not long enough for any type of non-commuter train to perform station duties, especially on a busy station. I simulated 10 min stops at New England and Tallington, places which would not be thought of as stations in the traditional sense. In both cases with nothing set, when late trains moved off with a 30 second stop. With 2mins in the train type/dwell times "station forward" box late trains stood for 2 minutes and then moved off. Then I added in the "C" check mark and they still stood for 2 mins. All of this with no time set in the "crew change" box. The only issue is when the train is on-time. I'm trying to draw some conclusions from another series of tests but getting nowhere - but one thing is clear, no matter option is set, the train will not depart on-time. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 29/08/2017 at 12:56 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 31/08/2017 at 21:33 #101404 | |
postal
5265 posts |
I've also added Crew Changes in a TT I am re-writing at the moment. There seems to be a generic problem which is making nearly every train with a crew change depart late. For example I have a freightliner with a 2 minute stop in the WTT 04C45 - 04C47. I have therefore checked the crew change box in the train's TT. The message box has told me that the crew will be ready at around 04:47. The train arrived just before 04:43 and F2 then reported crew change (exp 04:47). The train debug screen showed status as CRW. At 04:47:00 the debug changed to STA while the F2 message was unchanged as crew change (exp 04:47). At 04:47:50 F2 changed to awaiting RA and the debug to RA. The train finally started moving at 04:48:08 (over 1 minute late). Every train I have seen in the sim so far has exhibited the same behaviour with varying amounts of time passing between the due departure time and waiting for RA. I am guessing that the code has been set up to align the end of the crew change to the departure time of the train unless any delay or early running is invoked. If the code is only working to a random point in the full minute of the departure time then that will automatically put a random delay of between 0 and 59 seconds into the train after which there is a further delay while the code counts down the time between RA and the train moving. We'll have to wait and see if the changes in the next loader release address the problem, but as currently configured I don't think the crew change is useful for TT writers as it is delaying every train where an on-time crew-change has been invoked by the core code. My expectation of an on-time crew change would be that the driver is in the saddle and ready to go at due time. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 31/08/2017 at 21:50 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 31/08/2017 at 22:03 #101406 | |
Dick
387 posts |
I have also noticed that trains that have arrived early for a crew change sometimes get reported as arriving 2 minutes late at the crew change location.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 31/08/2017 at 22:24 #101408 | |
Soton_Speed
285 posts |
postal in post 101404 said:We'll have to wait and see if the changes in the next loader release address the problem, but as currently configured I don't think the crew change is useful for TT writers as it is delaying every train where an on-time crew-change has been invoked by the core code. My expectation of an on-time crew change would be that the driver is in the saddle and ready to go at due time.Perhaps it was written with BR era TT's in mind... Hat, coat and got the door behind me...! In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 01/09/2017 at 01:02 #101416 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Dick in post 101406 said:I have also noticed that trains that have arrived early for a crew change sometimes get reported as arriving 2 minutes late at the crew change location.Yes, quite correct. I have too. I have a train on the 1977 Peterborough timetable which stands on the 799/800 goods loop from 0103/0155. I set a 2-minute dwell and a crew change. At 0153 it reports arrival as 50mins late when it actually arrived at the signal on time. That is repeated with an ECS train booked to stand at Peterborough 1445/1500 for relief and it reports at arrived 13 minutes late at 1458 despite an on-time arrival. I've tried a number of work-arounds without success. The only thing to rectify this is to retime the train to fit the dwell time which is not really what you would want to do. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 01/09/2017 at 01:08 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 04/09/2017 at 16:40 #101523 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
Semi-related to traincrew relief - I'm really struggling with the code logic on Oxford. First of all, a train arrives on the platform, but it only "arrives" there after crew has changed over. I'm not usually bothered about my F5 score but it would seem illogical that crew change before the train officially "arrives". The attached save may be related to the crew change but feel free to split if not - - 1P07 has arrived, crew changed and TRTS'd - he's phoned up at 71, I've requested to exam line and pulled 71 off - 45 secs later without proceeding past 71 he phones up again to report no obstruction - at exactly the same time, he reports a delay as if he's just arrived in the station! Any light on this illogical behaviour would be appreciated. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 04/09/2017 at 16:42 by peterb Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 05/09/2017 at 20:00 #101555 | |
GeoffM
6377 posts |
Dick in post 101406 said:I have also noticed that trains that have arrived early for a crew change sometimes get reported as arriving 2 minutes late at the crew change location.Yes, sometimes crew arrive late in real life too! There is a plan in development to change the way crew changes work so timetable authors have better control over the ordering and timing of events at locations. It still needs a bit more R&D though so won't be an immediate change. Existing timetables with crew changes will be supported without any need for changes. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 05/09/2017 at 22:17 #101566 | |
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Dick
387 posts |
GeoffM in post 101555 said:Dick in post 101406 said:Agreed, but how does that affect the arrival time of the train, it will only affect the departure.I have also noticed that trains that have arrived early for a crew change sometimes get reported as arriving 2 minutes late at the crew change location.Yes, sometimes crew arrive late in real life too! Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 06/09/2017 at 01:03 #101570 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
Dick in post 101566 said:GeoffM in post 101555 said:Oh, you mean the train "arrived" early at the location, was not reported as an arrival, and a late crew change meant the train did not register/report arriving until some time later?Dick in post 101406 said:Agreed, but how does that affect the arrival time of the train, it will only affect the departure.I have also noticed that trains that have arrived early for a crew change sometimes get reported as arriving 2 minutes late at the crew change location.Yes, sometimes crew arrive late in real life too! SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 06/09/2017 at 08:46 #101571 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts 
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Already on bug board - 17713
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| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 08/09/2017 at 19:16 #101624 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
GeoffM in post 101555 said:There is a plan in development to change the way crew changes work so timetable authors have better control over the ordering and timing of events at locations. It still needs a bit more R&D though so won't be an immediate change. Existing timetables with crew changes will be supported without any need for changes.Is part of the plan to look at the default time that the crew change takes place. Currently on the simplest no-delay settings, the crew change is always set to take place at train departure time which automatically means a late departure. With the crew change as an action will the same bit of code decide when the new crew will be available? If so it means that the default situation would be an automatic late departure and it would be silly to have the crew change as anything but the last action at a location “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 08/09/2017 at 19:24 #101625 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Have a look at https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/46971 if you haven't already seen it.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 08/09/2017 at 21:01 #101627 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
headshot119 in post 101625 said:Have a look at https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/46971 if you haven't already seen it.Don't have authorisation to access. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 08/09/2017 at 21:17 #101628 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
Try now.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 08/09/2017 at 21:51 #101637 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
postal in post 101624 said:Is part of the plan to look at the default time that the crew change takes place. Currently on the simplest no-delay settings, the crew change is always set to take place at train departure time which automatically means a late departure. With the crew change as an action will the same bit of code decide when the new crew will be available? If so it means that the default situation would be an automatic late departure and it would be silly to have the crew change as anything but the last action at a locationNo. It's currently randomised to between 15 minutes before and 5 minutes after, i.e. a range of 20 minutes (I need to check those numbers but it's something like that). There may be a separate issue if you're always getting late crew changes so what sim and which timetable? SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 08/09/2017 at 21:59 #101638 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Update of the 1979 TT for Carlisle on Tom's latest beta. As it is TT testing, sim is set to no delays or failures. Every crew change is offered at the departure time of the train (or if the train is dep XX;XX H, at XX:XX). Inevitably leads to late departures. As an indicator of the scale of the impact, a 24 hour run without the crew changes enabled returned a score of 93%, same TT, same failures and delays with crew changes enabled, 90%.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 14/09/2017 at 00:50 #101781 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Now run 3 x 24 hour sim tests (72 hours of sim time) so well into 3 figures of crew changes. To the best of my recollection every single change has been at departure time (rounded down to the whole minute where departure is XX:XX H).
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 05/10/2017 at 00:24 #102050 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
GeoffM in post 101637 said:No. It's currently randomised to between 15 minutes before and 5 minutes after, i.e. a range of 20 minutes (I need to check those numbers but it's something like that). There may be a separate issue if you're always getting late crew changes so what sim and which timetable?A lot more hours on the same TT and the same consistency of results. However, we may be getting at cross-purposes about the point at issue. The problem is not about every change happening at the same part of the dwell cycle; as the delays and failures are turned off for the purposes of TT testing I would hope that the crew changes would all occur at a default time rather than within the 20 minute window. The problem is that the crew changes seem to be defaulting to a time that is guaranteed to cause a late departure. To avoid this happening can I suggest that the default time for the crew change to take place becomes 1 minute before due departure rather than at due departure. The 20 minute window is fine for the more advanced scenarios but it doesn't seem sensible to put the simplest scenarios into a situation where every train with a crew change will depart late. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Custom dwell times and train crew relief 23/10/2017 at 12:02 #102468 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Same TT, same sim and first variance from crew change time = departure time I can recall in over 100 hours of testing. Train booked for station time 06:11 - 06:18 with a minimum dwell time of 2 minutes and a set-down only stop. Crew change has been advised as 06:16.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |