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| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 27/12/2017 at 13:49 #104543 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
Dwell times and their many little quirks have been discussed many times, and I've long since lost track of what works, what doesn't, and what workarounds exist. I have a train type with a Station reverse dwell time of 5 minutes and a Terminate reverse dwell time of 5 minutes. Train 1A00 of this train type arrives in the Down direction at a station and terminates, forming a new ECS service 5A00 (of the same train type) which departs in the Up direction. There are no other activities. The ECS has "set down only" checked at its first location, as ECS services regularly run to depot early at this location. My expectation is that the ECS will depart either 5 minutes after arrival, or wait until departure time (IIRC Simsig randomly chooses between these options?). However, what occurs in practise (loader V4.6.6) is that the train almost immediately gives TRTS on arrival, and is shown as "Waiting for right-away" within a minute or so. a) Is my above setup expected to work, i.e. should the 5 minute dwell be adhered to, or have I missed a step? If it does seem to be a bug, is there still an open Mantis issue (or issues) for dwell time oddities, or was it thought that all dwell time issues are solved? b) If it should work, is there a known workaround to actually make it do so? Can I add custom dwell times to the incoming 1A00 or outgoing 5A00, or otherwise mess about with some timetabling options? Last edited: 27/12/2017 at 13:49 by Danny252 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 27/12/2017 at 15:09 #104545 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Still a lot of issues about dwell times to be resolved. In regard to the particular query, Kaiwhara reported on Mantis on 18/05/17: "If you want a train to be ready to go as soon as its ready and not wait for scheduled time (empty stock for example), and the train in question has just formed off an incoming service from the opposite direction (normally a terminal platform), the train buzzes up TRTS immediately, but should wait for the applicable minimum dwells before doing so (for example, to allow the driver to walk to the other cab). "It is worth noting this can be done using the dwell time box in the timetable editor in sim, but this is more manual work and slows down the timetable writing process as you'd need to look up the stock type and then work out what that minimum dwell should be" There has been no further comment on that bug (#17387) since it was reported. In the current "we are where we are" situation, the easiest way to go forward may well be to add a rule that 5A00 must not depart until 5 minutes after 1A00 has arrived. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 27/12/2017 at 15:53 #104546 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Thanks for quoting the current bug report and the two suggestions (custom dwell time or rules). For a custom dwell time, which train it should be applied to - the inbound service or the outbound? The manual doesn't specify which train is used for either custom or train-type dwell times (if two different train types are used for some reason). Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 27/12/2017 at 16:33 #104547 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Can't help you any further. Andrew (Kaiwhara) may be able to help when the other side of the world comes on line.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 28/12/2017 at 05:55 #104557 | |
kaiwhara
587 posts |
postal in post 104547 said:Can't help you any further. Andrew (Kaiwhara) may be able to help when the other side of the world comes on line.I'm a shift worker on the Railways so I could be up and about at any time around the clock. Notwithstanding this, I am about to move permanently to Australia so that will upset the times even more! Danny252 in post 104546 said: Thanks for quoting the current bug report and the two suggestions (custom dwell time or rules).It should be on the inbound, and I personally apply the minimum times to the train type (factoring in that trains of different types and lengths need more or less time to do certain activities). This works fine for trains that come in later than their scheduled departures do to various muckups as they will observe that minimum time before buzzing up ready to bounce back up again. The issue is when you apply a 'd' stop to let empties try to get out early (which, as a former driver I know definitely happens). The Core Code as it currently stands regards that this train should buzz up immediately when the outbound working has been formed. This has not been resolved yet (that I know of), but I do know it's been talked about at length as I have been party to those discussions on how best to resolve that. As usual, other bigger priorities get in the way, both in Simsig land and real life. Watch this space. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 28/12/2017 at 09:31 #104558 | |
VInce
579 posts |
I put a location dwell of the appropriate time in the outgoing train. It works. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 28/12/2017 at 09:45 #104559 | |
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kaiwhara
587 posts |
VInce in post 104558 said:I put a location dwell of the appropriate time in the outgoing train.Except that it means a manual edit on every single departure from a terminating station - with a timetable of several thousand trains this is a lot of additional work. The solution that we are trying to work on (which we have talked about before) is designed to prevent this additional work in the first place and provide a consistent solution. These workarounds will not help in the long run. Let us get on with it, please. Also, appreciate that for most of us, we have full time work outside of Simsig (as I said in an earlier post, I am about to move countries for a new role so I've had to pull back on a lot of the work I have been doing), so it will take time. It is worth it in the long run, that I can assure you of. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Last edited: 28/12/2017 at 09:45 by kaiwhara Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 28/12/2017 at 12:04 #104563 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
Danny252 in post 104546 said:Thanks for quoting the current bug report and the two suggestions (custom dwell time or rules).Hi Danny I know Andrew has already commented; but if you are using the custom dwell times on individual trains then it is the inbound train it needs to be applied to. I have used this method of adding in all of the timetables I've written, (which obviously hasn't added any extra work as I've done it at time of writing rather than needing to do it after the timetable has been written.) with the exception of joins / divides which I do by train type (with no additional custom dwell due the issues discussed in the many threads recently). But I haven't used it in conjunction with set down only (see Andrew's post) I found it especially useful in sims with large terminii where NR's Rules of the Route have a different minimum turnaround dwell depending on if it is a suburban or longer distance service (and also depending on TOC). There is also the fact that the same train type can have a different turnaround time depending on its terminating station. HTH Gareth Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 28/12/2017 at 18:15 #104564 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
kaiwhara in post 104559 said:VInce in post 104558 said:I would have bet money on that response.I put a location dwell of the appropriate time in the outgoing train.Except that it means a manual edit on every single departure from a terminating station - with a timetable of several thousand trains this is a lot of additional work. I knew I'd upset somebody. For crying out loud, live and let live... I produced a timetable with 1100 trains in it and did the necessary work. If you are prepared to do it, what's the problem? If not, wait for the solution. I give up with this forum - that's now the third time I get a ticking off from the lower hierarchy of Simsig for trying to help. I will make no further comments on this or any other issue and will be a read only member from now on - which will no doubt please you and some of the others. I give up. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 28/12/2017 at 18:16 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 29/12/2017 at 00:42 #104569 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Vince We all share your frustrations but I think you are taking kaiwhara's comments far more personally than he intended. While you are concentrating on the huge amount of work that you have done in order to produce high-quality and fully tested timetables for the rest of us to enjoy, kaiwhara is looking to achieve a solution that enables timetables to be written without the amount of ball-breaking repetitious work that you have put in, Given all of the different factors in play in regard to dwell times (and the associated alignment with crew changes) I am not convinced that a one-size-fits-all solution is possible and we may still end up having to put rules into TTs on top of the dwell time and crew change parameters where the circumstances take us outside the core requirements. However, the discussion about how we get to the end state shouldn't divert us from the fact that we are all trying to reach a common end for the common good. The more people that can join in and add positive contributions, the better the chance that we get to the best outcome so it would always be helpful and welcome if you could continue to contribute rather than standing on the sidelines. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 29/12/2017 at 00:44 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, kbarber, Steamer, Lyn-Greenwood |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 29/12/2017 at 10:58 #104577 | |
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norman B
111 posts |
I have followed this discussion with great interest.both on a personal level as a former TT writer in real Life for National Express and now having written a TT for another railway simulation. I have not looked or studied the various requirements associated with TT composition for Sim Sig however I can see that over the years of Sim Sigs existence rules and conventions have been added as they have been needed. That said ,perhaps now is the time for a long hard look at the various pieces which go into TT construction with a view to making the process easier for all TT writers.All writers need to be involved with this and such discussions should be held held in private rather than in a public forum . Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 29/12/2017 at 11:32 #104580 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
I sympathise with Vince. With no foreknowledge of if/when the dwell time oddities will finally be ironed out, and the years that have passed since many of them were identified, a small amount of additional work to improve timetables doesn't seem misplaced at all. Next thing you know, we'll be told not to use the workaround required for Avonmouth Bulk Terminal on the Bristol sim! Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 29/12/2017 at 15:43 #104587 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
Danny, The two workarounds are not the same thing. The Avonmouth BHT bug workaround is just a case of sending a train via a line different to the one that is booked and is no different to deciding to send a train into platform 1 at a random station instead of platform 3 at the same station. The timetable bug with dwell times requires a substantial alteration to a timetable to work around it, and there is a chance that when these issues are fixed in the core core then the workaround could cause the timetable to act undesirably, causing anyone who had altered a timetable along those lines to need to undo their work. What Kaiwhara was alluding to is that this issue will be fixed and it may save a lot of work to just wait for that fix. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: norman B |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 29/12/2017 at 16:26 #104590 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
To build on what Stephen has said, we still don't have an understood and accepted definition of what a dwell time is and until we have that there is no way of knowing how any future dwell time code will work. For example for mail and parcels work (essentially a heritage TT problem), the dwell time could be defined as the time that train is available to platform staff for loading and unloading. Any loco changes, detaches, attaches etc. would not impinge on that in any significant way so the dwell time would be taken as arrival to departure time. The same would also be true about heritage TT passenger trains where loco changes etc. would not interfere with the boarding and alighting from trains with uncontrolled doors (even though current day H&S practitioners would have to be revived with smelling salts at that thought). On the other hand with modern day stock the doors may well be closed and locked while attaches and detaches take place. Therefore the time from arrival to departure would need to include the time required for passenger purposes plus the time taken for shunting/attaching/detaching. In that case is the dwell time the time required for passenger business or the overall arrival to departure time? You can't have both definitions for a single dwell time entity (inclusive of other actions or exclusive of other actions) so we need to understand what we collectively mean by dwell time before we can go forward in any sensible manner. We may even end up with two separate entities, one covering a time required for platform business which is then added to attach/detach times and another covering arrival to departure minimum time to cover all the bases. It is never as easy as it looks from the outside once you start to consider all of the cases for all of the possible eras and not just the cases for one individual timetable. Until that sort of issue is resolved and TT writers understand how the core code is going to work then it is perhaps premature to spend a lot of time editing a TT to work under the current circumstances; it could well be broken in a future core code update. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Lyn-Greenwood, whatlep, norman B |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 10:37 #104599 | |
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norman B
111 posts |
Following on from Postals post,until you can define what Dwell Time means with regard to Sim Sig the way forward is going to be difficult. For Example - Dwell time is the time an item ie loco ,Mu Freight, spends in a Station Platform,Siding or other recognised place for the purpose of carrying out other duties before departing on its next piece of work. The initial definition needs to be worded so that it can be used no matter which time period is being simulated. Without that clear understanding of what Dwell Time means you are always going to have endless debates on the subject. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, Lyn-Greenwood |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 12:25 #104600 | |
Dick
387 posts |
Alternatively, dispense with the concept of 'dwell time' completely and replace with a set of discrete activities to be concatenated as required.
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| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 13:02 #104602 | |
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MarkC
1105 posts |
Perhaps what is need is to seperate out the Current Dwell times in to 2 categories, Activites and Dwell Time Activities could included thing such as crew change, Join and divide [which could have the option (a check box maybe) that allows passenges to board or not board as the join/divide take place short depending on stock, loco hauled or MU.] these time would run consecutively. The other Dwell time (or could be refered to a "Station Stop time" Station being used in this context as a location a train stops ie station, rev point or siding's), could include thing like minimum station stop time, turn around times, etc. This option could then run concurrently with the Activites, and would theoretically always be longer than the combined times of Activities, and if for a station stop a longer "Station Stop time" is needed using the timetable location you could override the Default (set by train type) to a longer one, as long as the minimum that was set by the train type is met for example say a train arrived in to a platform and had a join before it done its next working, you have a turn around time of 5 mins and for joins a time of 2 mins, the arriving train arrives into the platform and the dwell time for turn around starts, and the join may begin once the join has completed the dwell time for the turn around has only thus gone down by around 2 mins and therefore has 3 mins to go allowing time for passenger to disembark and embark. Last edited: 30/12/2017 at 13:39 by MarkC Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 18:33 #104608 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Dick in post 104600 said:Alternatively, dispense with the concept of 'dwell time' completely and replace with a set of discrete activities to be concatenated as required.Unfortunately this is another example where one size does not fit all. In the heritage era there were mail and parcel trains which had a defined time at platform and which could be taken in full even if the train was late. That means that you must have some way of setting things up so that the train does not depart until 20 minutes after arrival. This can be done by using a rule but that seems to deprecate the idea of a dwell time action. Suppose one of those station stops included a loco change and a detach. As the core code will only handle actions consecutively rather than in parallel that makes a total of maybe 10 to 15 minutes carrying out the railway work and leaving the train clear to start and with the road clear in front of it. If the booked station time is 20 minutes how do you define the indeterminate gap after the actions have completed (which will vary depending on the expertise of the signaller and any conflicting movements)? Do you define a "waiting for platform time to elapse" action? If so how long do you make it? And what happens if the new loco is delayed from the depot and is not attached until due departure time? You then have a "waiting for platform time to elapse" action of some length decided by the TT writer which will have to pass before the train departs turning a potential on time departure into a late departure. At the end of the day, there either has to be some definition of dwell time or similar which allows the setting of a minimum guaranteed stopped time at the platform irrespective of whether there are any actions taking place or there is some other definition of dwell time and the case of trains with guaranteed platform allowances even though actions are taking place is handled by a rule in the TT rather than a check box in the train's TT. Not significant in the overall scheme of things but until the way forward is clear TT writers are stuck in a no-man's-land with no clear idea of how to move forward. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 30/12/2017 at 18:44 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: norman B |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 18:48 #104609 | |
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Dick
387 posts |
Ah, wasn't aware that the core code insisted on serial activities rather than allowing parallel activities. Shame really, otherwise a timetable version of a project Gantt chart would solve the problem.
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| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 18:56 #104610 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Dick in post 104609 said:Ah, wasn't aware that the core code insisted on serial activities rather than allowing parallel activities. Shame really, otherwise a timetable version of a project Gantt chart would solve the problem.But if you had the parallel processing option, you would just set a dwell time as another action as it would be counting down while the parallel activities took place. However, that wouldn't help the modern day situation where you have a join/detach where the train is not available for platform duties and a time for public access. Those two activities can't run in parallel. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: norman B |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 19:22 #104611 | |
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Dick
387 posts |
Yes, but if you could define activities in series and in parallel you could dispense with the concept of 'dwell time' altogether and just set the various activities that need to take place. I'm having difficulty in understanding just what 'dwell time' really means, which I guess is the crux of the whole matter, does such a concept exist?
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| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 19:48 #104613 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Dick in post 104609 said:Ah, wasn't aware that the core code insisted on serial activities rather than allowing parallel activities.It's like that because, originally, there was no need for anything else. I suspect that may well have to change. Which makes it a bigger - and therefore longer timescale - project. Last edited: 30/12/2017 at 19:48 by clive Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Lyn-Greenwood, BarryM, postal, Dick, norman B |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 21:22 #104622 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Dick in post 104611 said:Yes, but if you could define activities in series and in parallel you could dispense with the concept of 'dwell time' altogether and just set the various activities that need to take place.So what about mails/parcels which have a defined minimum stopping time and no activities? Do you call that a dwell time or do you just put it all in the "too difficult" box and sort it with a rule? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 22:02 #104625 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
postal in post 104622 said:Do you call that a dwell time or do you just put it all in the "too difficult" box and sort it with a rule?Given how long the discussion has be running, and how complex it's getting, that's starting to sound like a good option... "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Dwell times for terminating, reversing trains 30/12/2017 at 22:07 #104626 | |
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Dick
387 posts |
postal in post 104622 said:Dick in post 104611 said:Yes, but if you could define activities in series and in parallel you could dispense with the concept of 'dwell time' altogether and just set the various activities that need to take place.So what about mails/parcels which have a defined minimum stopping time and no activities? Do you call that a dwell time or do you just put it all in the "too difficult" box and sort it with a rule? No, not really. Just saying the whole thing needs a complete rethink of how it is handled rather than trying to fit it with the current limitations of the core code. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, norman B |