Page 1 of 1
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 14:48 #2041 | |
postal
5265 posts 
|
I was wandering round the Internet looking at nothing in particular when I found this snippet. After consultation with Network Rail, East Coast Railways have released their 2010 WTTs to a complainant under the FOI when he was able to show that WTTs should not be exempt from the FOI as they contain information material to noise, emissions and other environmental impacts. If I've understood correctly, under the Environmental Information Regulations, these items are specifically barred from exemption under the FOI. The links to the actual WTTs are given towards the end of the page if anyone wants to see them. They are company specific (i.e. don't show XC or FCC for example where they are using the same route). They also do not show ECS workings which would presumably fall under the same considerations regarding environmental issues so it may take another request to get those workings. However, this presumably opens the door for SimSig TT writers to get the same sort of information from other TOCs (and potentially even the freight companies) if they so wish. I'm not sure how this would apply to WTTs earlier than the current releases. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 14:48 #12637 | |
|
postal
5265 posts
|
I was wandering round the Internet looking at nothing in particular when I found this snippet. After consultation with Network Rail, East Coast Railways have released their 2010 WTTs to a complainant under the FOI when he was able to show that WTTs should not be exempt from the FOI as they contain information material to noise, emissions and other environmental impacts. If I've understood correctly, under the Environmental Information Regulations, these items are specifically barred from exemption under the FOI. The links to the actual WTTs are given towards the end of the page if anyone wants to see them. They are company specific (i.e. don't show XC or FCC for example where they are using the same route). They also do not show ECS workings which would presumably fall under the same considerations regarding environmental issues so it may take another request to get those workings. However, this presumably opens the door for SimSig TT writers to get the same sort of information from other TOCs (and potentially even the freight companies) if they so wish. I'm not sure how this would apply to WTTs earlier than the current releases. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 15:25 #12640 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
|
Hmm interesting- had not realised EC was subject to FOI but it makes sense as it comes under the auspicis of the DfT: The name "Directly Operated Railways Limited" also being a bit of a giveaway. I think the Environmental aspect is a bit of a red herring myself. Note; it only works for EC because of its ownership status I think all the other TOCs and FOCs will not unless - is MerseyRail franchise still operated by the Local authority? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 15:42 #12641 | |
|
postal
5265 posts
|
Peter Note the comment about ownership of EC which hadn't occurred to me when I made the original posting. However, EC only released the WTTs with the specific permission of Network Rail as they claimed in the first instance that the TTs were the property of Network Rail. In that case, where does Network Rail sit in regard to FOI? The environmental stuff is probably an irrelevance, but a nice lever to crack the door open a little. JG “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 15:51 #12643 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
|
NR is not subject to FOI as has been discussed before. It can (as probably can the TOCs FOCs and ATOC) as bodies fulfilling a public function (Section 5, FOIA 2000- from memory) if the Secretary of State is so minded- so far he has not been so minded. Also when and if EC is re-franchised the FOI status will be lost as the law stand at the moment. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 17:34 #12648 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
|
Had some further thoughts- I believe that EC were correct to cite the exemption they did and that they were correct that they had no right to disclose the information. However, the fact that they did can only mean two things- they chose to release it off their own bat and thus infringing the implied terms that NR gave it to them (unlikely)- or they released it with the permission of NR. If the latter then there is prima-facie argument that NR have waived their rights to privacy on all WTTs. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 19:09 #12650 | |
ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
London Underground will release their WTTs. I tried it to see if they would. and now have 2kg of paper on my desk and no idea what to do with it.
Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 19:51 #12652 | |
|
postal
5265 posts
|
Peter Away down at the bottom of the page opened by the link I gave in the first posting is a response from East Coast dated 18/11/2010 (along with the WTTs). Included in the EC response is: "You will recall that we previously declined to provide the information requested on the basis that it was supplied to us by Network Rail on a confidential basis and that Network Rail did not consent to its disclosure. Following your request for an internal review of this decision, this view was re-affirmed by Network Rail. "After further discussions with Network Rail, I am pleased to inform you that they have now consented to our disclosing the information to you. A copy is therefore attached. I have also forwarded a copy of this response to the Information Commissioner." Like you say, a pretty good prima-facie case for anyone else to ask for similar information, given this precedent. JG “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 20:39 #12654 | |
|
Jan
906 posts |
Relating to this, does anyone know whether the existence of printed WTTs has actually ceased now, as stated in the Rules of the Plan?
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 21:03 #12655 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
|
ralphjwchadkirk said:London Underground will release their WTTs. I tried it to see if they would. and now have 2kg of paper on my desk and no idea what to do with it.Yes they would have to under FOI- no question. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 22:02 #12658 | |
|
clive
2789 posts |
Actually, the environmental regulations are an additional channel to get access to stuff - they work in parallel to FoI, so you can request stuff under either of them and, if it qualifies under either, they have to hand it over. There is an exemption for information provided in confidence, but it has to be legally actionable for the exemption to apply (e.g. because there's a non-disclosure agreement in place or because the law recognizes a duty of confidence), not just because someone has written "in confidence". Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 22:10 #12659 | |
|
clive
2789 posts |
Actually, checking further, the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 *don't* have a confidentiality exemption. Rather, the exemption is if disclosure would adversely affect (among other things): (c) intellectual property rights; (d) the confidentiality of the proceedings of that or any other public authority where such confidentiality is provided by law; (e) the confidentiality of commercial or industrial information where such confidentiality is provided by law to protect a legitimate economic interest; (f) the interests of the person who provided the information where that person — (i) was not under, and could not have been put under, any legal obligation to supply it to that or any other public authority; (c) doesn't apply because NR don't sell the WTT. (d) doesn't apply because the confidentiality of proceedings of DOR isn't provided by law and NR aren't a public authority. (e) doesn't apply because there's no legitimate economic interest being protected. (f) doesn't apply because NR have a contractual obligation to supply the WTT to DOR so they can run their trains! So as I read it they have to provide the information on environmental grounds. Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 25/11/2010 at 22:26 #12660 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
|
Yes but is NR a body covered by that Regulation given that it's not covered by FOIA200? And is a WTT a document that could be considered to contain environmental information within the provisions of Reg 2? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 28/11/2010 at 17:34 #12693 | |
|
greatkingrat
75 posts |
There have been cases on this matter before and the conclusion was Network Rail is not covered by either FOI or EIR. http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/policy/opengov/eir/decision/networkrail.htm It is worth noting that the coalition government are going to extend the scope of the FOI Act so it is quite likely that Network Rail will be covered at some point in the next few years. Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 28/11/2010 at 19:49 #12695 | |
|
Peter-test
13 posts |
greatkingrat said:There have been cases on this matter before and the conclusion was Network Rail is not covered by either FOI or EIR. http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/policy/opengov/eir/decision/networkrail.htmSo that clarifies the the position under the Environmental legislation- though I still question how a WTT could be covered by the scope. The last Government brought forward proposals to invoke Section 5 FOI and designate some additional bodies though did not include NR - the instrument was never laid before parliament. We will see what happens. Peter Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 28/11/2010 at 20:35 #12696 | |
|
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
|
Have just fired off an email to Ministry of Justice asking what the plans are. A FOI request asking for info on the application of the FOI- the irony! Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Confidentiality of WTTs 29/11/2010 at 18:49 #12707 | |
|
greatkingrat
75 posts |
Peter Bennet said:So that clarifies the the position under the Environmental legislation- though I still question how a WTT could be covered by the scope. I think the argument is that it is not possible to know the total environmental impact of the railway system without details of all train movements being released (including ECS, freight etc that is not in the public timetable) Log in to reply |