Page 1 of 2
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 13/08/2020 at 11:38 #130611 | |
MrSuttonmann
265 posts |
I was just wondering if IRL it's acceptable for a signaller to use emergency replacement for non-emergencies? For example, at Cowdenbeath, would it be acceptable to place EC759 to red for a train reversing back to Edinburgh, to prevent the driver accidentally missing the stop? 
(Formerly known as manadude2) Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 13/08/2020 at 12:09 #130614 | |
jc92
3688 posts 
|
Generally speaking,switches marked E can't be relied upon to hold the signal at danger and shouldn't be used to, for instance protect a UWC or line blockage. Switches marked R can be relied upon and can be used as such. In your example the signal doesn't need to be held at danger (although there's nothing to stop you) as the driver should know where he's booked to stop and how to stop there. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 13/08/2020 at 12:18 #130615 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
I have used them to protect a couple of level crossings (just in case) in the Peterborough sim, but if it's not acceptable, won't do so any more. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 13/08/2020 at 12:51 #130616 | |
VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Whilst accepting the difference between E and R buttons and their varying uses, in the Peterborough sim which Bugsy uses as an example there is an interesting signalling "design" issue in the down slow and mainlines. As far as I remember it in a run of automatic signals, every fifth signal must be able to be controlled by the signaller (which in effect means replaced to danger). That "rule" seems to apply here, taking the down main as an example (other lines here are similar) K725 has an E button and then the fifth signal after that K749 has an E button. This signal, presumably co-incidentally, "protects" East Road MWL. The very next signal K761 has an E button. K761 "protects" Holme Green MWL. Signalling design doesn't seem to mandate that K761 be so fitted, so why is it if its not in order to afford a way of stopping trains whilst Holme Green MWL crossing is in use? With Kings Cross PSB being quite an elderly PSB has there been some change in design requirements since it was built which would need a derogation here. Was the usage stats of East Road and Holme Green a factor in this this? Has there been a rule change regarding the use of E buttons in such circumstances? I don't know. As far as the sim is concerned, the only time a signaller can authorise the use of East Road or Holme Green for the types of vehicle that need permission is by blocking the down main and down slow completely by using BLOK in the K717 and K715 describer berths. To the north of the sim, the "every five signals" seems to become "every six signals" if the gap between Greatford and Little Bytham is concerned. So have I got the rule right - or was it ever a rule? Design of Peterborough and KX seems to pre-date the idea of risk analysis so was it just a rule of thumb? Yours Sincerely, Confused of Belper... I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 13/08/2020 at 13:13 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 13/08/2020 at 18:42 #130621 | |
Hap
1039 posts |
For the record. EC759 is held at red when we terminate at Cowdenbeath.
How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply The following users said thank you: DonRiver, jc92, MrSuttonmann |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 13/08/2020 at 19:32 #130623 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
manadude2 in post 130611 said:I was just wondering if IRL it's acceptable for a signaller to use emergency replacement for non-emergencies?You can use replacement switches for non-emergencies, yes. One common use is to protect crossings; another for engineering work. You should not need to hold a signal at red just to "remind" the driver not to proceed past it. Though I was in New Street box once where a driver was instructed to go towards a signal, but reverse behind a shunt signal. When he got on the phone to the signaller at Soho because he had a red signal, the signaller asked why he went all the way to Soho: "well, the signal was green, so I took it," he said. D'oh. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: MrSuttonmann, andyb0607 |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 09:55 #130631 | |
|
VInce
579 posts |
GeoffM in post 130623 said:manadude2 in post 130611 said:Such was always my interpretation, Geoff. Where I worked they were used for that and we knew the fact that E buttons did not return confirmation that the signal was red. After all, what's the point in having them if they don't work.I was just wondering if IRL it's acceptable for a signaller to use emergency replacement for non-emergencies?You can use replacement switches for non-emergencies, yes. One common use is to protect crossings; another for engineering work. It made me think after what jc92 said, that they should not be used for routine tasks like protecting crossings etc. My last post referred to Peterborough/KX where the mere fact that the signal is so fitted would indicate that that was the very intention. Otherwise, why have two consecutive signals fitted with E buttons, both in rear of MWL crossings when the rule was "every 5 signals". At Derby, there are (were) E buttons "protecting" tunnels which would also indicate that it was the intention that they be used for stopping trains for line examination purposes. Was it because it was just cheaper than fitting a controlled signal, with all its associated interlocking that an E button was used? Anyone any ideas? Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 14/08/2020 at 11:22 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 13:43 #130638 | |
|
MrSuttonmann
265 posts |
GeoffM in post 130623 said:You can use replacement switches for non-emergencies, yes. One common use is to protect crossings; another for engineering work.That answers my question. I suppose my question should have been: is there would be a specific rule that says emergency replacements cannot be used for non-emergencies. Interesting that they don't guarantee a red aspect, however. That seems counter-intuitive as I would have expected the most restrictive aspect to be guaranteed at any time. (Formerly known as manadude2) Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 14:22 #130641 | |
|
bugsy
1766 posts |
GeoffM in post 130623 said:Ah. This is good news. If I hadn't used them the crossing user would have probably still be there waiting. I have to admit though that it meant slightly delaying a train or two and that was what I thought would be unacceptable. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 16:34 #130650 | |
|
Hap
1039 posts |
Hap in post 130621 said:For the record. EC759 is held at red when we terminate at Cowdenbeath.I should have added, we have three methods of turning at COW. One is to remain on platform 2 and form the next service from there. EC759 will be held at red. 2. Arrive into 2 and do the shunt into P1, EC759 will be held at red. 3. If for what ever reason we can start or do the shunt at COW, we could expect EC759 to be showing proceed. If I were to see this on a terminating service, My route knowledge kicks in and tells me that the signaller is planning to shunt us at Clunnybridge Jn at ET774. A quick call to confirm this never goes amiss, but it is something we can expect and no real need to challenge, although quite rare move indeed. How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 16:43 #130652 | |
|
GeoffM
6376 posts |
VInce in post 130631 said:Was it because it was just cheaper than fitting a controlled signal, with all its associated interlocking that an E button was used? Anyone any ideas?I'm pretty sure there was a thread on this just recently: yes, a replacement switch (whether E or R) is much cheaper than a controlled signal - though the difference is a lot less in computer based interlockings. In simple terms, a replacement is just a latch condition on the signal being allowed to show proceed; a controlled signal has train in section proving logic and route release logic, albeit to a lesser degree sometimes than a "proper" controlled signal (some plain line routes don't have any approach locking, for example). If you can think of 50 ways to leave your... er... lever, then you can bet the Western have yet another way 
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 20:56 #130664 | |
clive
2789 posts |
I think that, at least back then, it was seen as reasonable to use the E button to protect things like level crossings. Cambridge is 1982 or so. I can see E buttons protecting both tunnels (so there's two Es in a row, the second between the two tunnels), Newport up starter to break up a run of 6 (for some reason, the down line has a controlled signal instead), and *every* auto on the Ely part of the panel (but that's all SSIs, so that makes sense). However, all level crossings, including AHB and MWL, are protected by controlled signals (albeit with A buttons for AHBs and MWLs). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 14/08/2020 at 21:44 #130665 | |
pedroathome
915 posts |
There is one example that I'm currently looking at, where the emergency replacement needs to be set for a set of points to be reversed. In this case, the points fall into the overlap of the auto signal.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 03:13 #130672 | |
|
Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
bugsy in post 130641 said:Worth noting that in the real world, signal protection only needs providing at a crossing if the vehicle crossing is long, low or slow. Additionally, any request that will take longer than 3 minutes to cross is treated as long, low or slow and should have signal protection and a request to call back when clear at the other side. Crossing requests should not delay a train, if there's one approaching then the crossing user just has to wait. GeoffM in post 130623 said: You'd be surprised how often this actually happens! I've seen it happen once at Filton Abbeywood where an empty IET was booked to reverse there and head towards Wales. The driver kept going, which wouldn't have been an issue had the other 3 lines on the Filton Bank not been under possession! "Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 04:42 #130673 | |
|
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Sam Tugwell in post 130672 said:GeoffM in post 130623 said:Well yes, but you work in a box and I'm just a mere visitor :)You'd be surprised how often this actually happens! I've seen it happen once at Filton Abbeywood where an empty IET was booked to reverse there and head towards Wales. The driver kept going, which wouldn't have been an issue had the other 3 lines on the Filton Bank not been under possession! Out of interest, given that the driver has failed to follow orders, is that in the realms of a reportable issue? Assuming that the driver didn't pass any signals at danger, or pass any stations, but just simply failed to do the reversal as instructed? SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: wulf |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 11:23 #130676 | |
Splodge
720 posts |
I've done this move (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S41101/2020-08-14/detailed) fairly regularly over the past few months for route retention - including the linked trip from last night. It shows as reversing at Kidsgrove, but in reality we pass through and reverse behind SOT587 - it's roughly 50/50 as to whether the Stoke signaller uses the replacement button on SOT310 (not that we can actually see it where we reverse - but you can tell from the sequence, and a red glow when its dark that its held!). I presume it's just a belt-and-braces approach that potentially helps us and the signaller!
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 11:47 #130678 | |
|
mfcooper
707 posts |
Instructing a driver to proceed to reverse behind a signal whose number they will not be able to see as it is facing the wrong way (compared to the current direction of travel) can be quite difficult. Even if they figure out where the signal is, are they able to correctly judge how long they need to keep going to get the (current) rear of the train behind said signal with appropriate sighting distance? I was always cautious about giving a driver a signal number to stop at that they could not see. I would try to describe where the shunt signal was and also tried to advise if auto signals ahead would be at a proceed or not. There was potential that the driver was looking for the signal number ID plate to stop at that they would not see. Last edited: 15/08/2020 at 11:48 by mfcooper Reason: missed a bit Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 15:03 #130687 | |
|
Hap
1039 posts |
We have Rear Clear boards all over the place now up here. Black triangle on a round white board. Also on that board are details of the length of train that would be clear at that point. Other times where we've been asked to turn on the mainline at an available point that is outwith the "normal", We would be told at which area we'd be turned and within what signal. Driver would tell me, and I'd sit in the back and buzz 1 when we are within that signal. How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DonRiver |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 17:06 #130692 | |
DriverCurran
688 posts
|
That used to be the unofficial method of working for the Redhill dead 508 siding, oops sorry Redhill P.O Dock, owing to the distinct lack of electrickery (Deliberate typo!!) in that siding you had to have a very high degree of trust in the conductor to have lightening reactions to give you the stop signal in time. When I was a conductor doing this I would have the driver on the cab to cab and do it old school. Two to go, one to go, half to go, cab to go, stop!!! Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 15/08/2020 at 17:28 #130695 | |
|
Splodge
720 posts |
We have rear-clear/stop boards in a few sidings, but not many on the mainline (except, oddly, at Ashburys where they were put in for 350s which couldn't actually use them as that exit off the depot was never wired...). We do the buzz-behind when assisting other drivers with shunts on Stockport Viaduct. Some guards will do it in sidings as well (Alderley Edge, New Mills Central) just to save a trek all the way down to the buffers! There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Last edited: 15/08/2020 at 17:32 by Splodge Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 16/08/2020 at 01:52 #130704 | |
|
Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
GeoffM in post 130673 said:Out of interest, given that the driver has failed to follow orders, is that in the realms of a reportable issue? Assuming that the driver didn't pass any signals at danger, or pass any stations, but just simply failed to do the reversal as instructed?I've reported it every time its happened whilst I've been on the desk, although the severity of the talking to that a driver would get would likely be influenced by whether the driver failed to follow their diagram or if it was an unplanned move, how easy it would be to recover back to booked route and/or how many delay minutes it caused. In this situation, the train involved had to run via the Rhubarb, Swindon (rev) and Cheltenham, started short at Worcester Shrub Hill vice Hereford, and even then started late. Lets just say that Control found it most discourteous. "Signalman Exeter" Last edited: 16/08/2020 at 09:16 by headshot119 Reason: Deleted by moderator Log in to reply The following user said thank you: GeoffM |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 16/08/2020 at 06:46 #130709 | |
Giantray
347 posts |
manadude2 in post 130638 said:GeoffM in post 130623 said:At my location of work we have a mixture of "E" and "R" replacement auto signals. There is no rule in the Rule Book, however, Signal Box Special Instruction (SBSIs) state that "E" autos should not be used for the protection of the line for Line Blockages and Engineering Possessions by use of the emergency replacement facility on the workstation as they cannot not be relied upon to be at Danger when operated. However, "E" Autos can be be used to protect Line Blockages and Engineering work if someone goes to that signal confirms to the Signaller is at proceeed, with Signallers Authority uses the signal post replacement key to replace the signal to Danger and confirms to the Signaller the signal is at Danger.You can use replacement switches for non-emergencies, yes. One common use is to protect crossings; another for engineering work.That answers my question. I suppose my question should have been: is there would be a specific rule that says emergency replacements cannot be used for non-emergencies. Whilst "E" auto signals can be used in an emergency to stop a train, sole reliance should not be placed on that signal and should be backed up with a GSM-R call because if the signal hasn't gone to danger an obstructed line could then still pose a danger to trains. It is always preferable to stop trains at a controlled signal in an emergency. The "E" autos are there as something better than nothing. In my 31 years operating a very busy area, I have only known two cases that an "E" auto signal did not go to Danger on use of the replacement switch in the box. But it can happen so that is why they are not relied upon to be at Danger. Examination of a line, a train driver should be spoken to from a Controlled Signal(Rule Book instructions) in rear of the line to be examined. I would not rely upon an "E" Auto to be at danger to stop a train to examine a line. I would stop the train at a controlled signal in rear, no matter how far away, tell the driver that "x" signal has been replaced to danger at "location", to proceed to that signal and stop irrepective of aspect and contact the signaller there. Then when the train is at the "E" autosignal, confirm it is at danger and then you can signal further trains to that signal provided you do not restore the replacement as you will know it is at Danger. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amateur wannabees! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 16/08/2020 at 22:51 #130729 | |
Simdmuk
155 posts |
Excuse my ignorance,but I assume that in an IECC/SSI installation, auto signal aspects can be seen by the signaler on the VDU ,so why would you need physical confirmation of the signal at danger ? Or is it that ,as non interlocked,its simply not reliable even if your display showed the relevant signal at danger ?. As a side point,I usually go for a walk on the sea wall at Dawlish on Boxing days,the auto signals along the sea wall,together with the controlled are always set to danger,therefore a non emergency use. Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 16/08/2020 at 23:01 #130734 | |
|
Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
SSI areas are different to Relay Interlocking and a lot of SimSig sims are of relay interlocking areas. I also know of places where the aspect doesn’t go back to the box in an SSI/IECC area. Auto signals definitely are interlocked, just in a different way to controlled signals and the conditions for them to physically clear on the ground are no less stringent. However the indications back to the panel are not to the same safety standard always. This isn’t inherently unsafe as the signal itself cannot clear unless the interlocking on the ground allows. Last edited: 16/08/2020 at 23:03 by Stephen Fulcher Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Acceptable to use Emergency Replacement for non-emergencies? 16/08/2020 at 23:33 #130741 | |
|
Simdmuk
155 posts |
Stephen Fulcher in post 130734 said:SSI areas are different to Relay Interlocking and a lot of SimSig sims are of relay interlocking areas. I also know of places where the aspect doesn’t go back to the box in an SSI/IECC area.Thanks Stephen. I understood the interlocking of auto signals,it was the reporting of an auto signal aspect to the signaller I was questioning (perhaps I should have made that clearer).So does this mean that in an IECC area,auto signal aspects shown on a display screen are true or assumed ? Last edited: 17/08/2020 at 00:09 by Simdmuk Reason: None given Log in to reply |