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| SimSig down, what happened? 20/12/2020 at 16:44 #134979 | |
Red For Danger
172 posts |
just out of interest, what would happen in a real signalling centre if the system went down for a period of time - presumably there would be some form of back-up or would everything have to stop......? PS - When the server dropped I just fired up one of the old .exe sims....... It worked just fine.....! Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 06:42 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| SimSig down, what happened? 20/12/2020 at 17:20 #134990 | |
Splodge
716 posts 
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Manchester South had a critical failure which lasted around four days. The only way through it was emergency special working, with all points clipped and scotched with only one route permitted (points were not being wound). Routes were set from Cheadle Hulme to Prestbury, and Styal to Sandbach (independent lines) so passenger trains could run via Stoke and freight via Styal and Crewe. No passenger service was provided through Wilmslow or towards Crewe. https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/passengers-warned-crewe-signalling-failure-disruption-will-continue-this-weekend There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 06:42 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| SimSig down, what happened? 20/12/2020 at 20:53 #135005 | |
postal
5264 posts
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Red For Danger in post 134979 said:just out of interest, what would happen in a real signalling centre if the system went down for a period of time - presumably there would be some form of back-up or would everything have to stop......?Read what happened when the computer(s) at York took the huff in 2011 - https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/2677?postId=14408 “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 06:42 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| SimSig down, what happened? 23/12/2020 at 05:48 #135096 | |
geswedey
202 posts |
Agreed I used to work in a railway Control room and our systems failed far more often than Simsig ever has, when you are monitoring and controlling the whole of East Anglia it is rather more crucial that you can see what is happening and have the ability to access other systems than a sim failing for a few hours. Mobile phone and Broadband suppliers have also failed far more often than Simsig has as well again far more critical.
Glyn Calvert ACIRO Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 06:42 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Stephen Fulcher |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 06:40 #135097 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
[Split off thread] Some incidents not mentioned already: Slough New IECC (as was): I don't remember the issue but I think it was the Paddington workstation that failed, and Deltarail (at the time) engineers were helicoptered in to fix it. Many hours of either complete closure of Paddington or at least a very reduced service. Somebody please correct me. Ashford IECC: An unauthorised modification to a sound card on a simulator system, which was located in a room off the operating floor, caused a "smouldering incident" (those were the words used) which nearly caused the evacuation of the building. Signallers were told to prepare to bring all trains to a stand while it was dealt with, but in the end the incident was dealt with before the evacuation happened. King's Cross: Gas cylinders in a nearby (non-railway) building were at risk of exploding, causing the signalbox to be evacuated. In this case, once the station re-opened, a limited service was run by utilising manned relay rooms along the line, but severely degraded. This couldn't happen in computer based interlocking areas these days as the interlocking cubicles are usually located in the signalling centre. To the best of my knowledge, nowhere in the UK has a separate, off-site, back-up operating facility in the case of a failure or evacuation. Oslo, Norway (I did a bit of work there): No backup. In the US, I visited a signalling facility in Fort Wayne, Indiana. They were asked about backup facilities and the response was along the lines of "yes, we have one in Chicago, but that's 5 hours drive from here, and nobody there is trained to control our area, and nobody here wants to drive there, so it's effectively useless". Has Swanwick ATC ever been evacuated? Somewhat harder to just do the equivalent of pulling all routes! Do they have a backup facility usable? (I don't know but I'm sure somebody here does) SimSig Boss Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 06:57 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 09:48 #135107 | |
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Chromatix
190 posts |
ATC evacuations do occasionally happen. In such cases a condition "ATC Zero" is declared and pilots will either revert to some nearby ATC facility that is still operational, or coordinate movements amongst themselves. For example, if an airport's Tower is evacuated (or goes ATC Zero for some other reason, such as radar failure), pilots will normally ask the overlying Centre for guidance, which will be able to direct them to an alternate airport that is still operational. Short-term outages may even be covered by reserve fuel. There are well-established procedures for landing at uncontrolled airports, which normally apply to tiny airstrips and light aircraft, but which can also be applied to larger airports in a pinch (and only in VFR weather conditions). These procedures are a lot less efficient than the normal controlled procedures, but they may suffice for getting some aircraft on the ground safely while others divert. One thing that helps a lot is that airliners are fitted with a collision warning and resolution advisory system. The necessary equipment for this is entirely mounted on the aircraft and doesn't rely on any ground facilities. Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 10:47 #135114 | |
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Javelin395
272 posts |
Swanwick ATC facility seems to go down more often than Simsig (admittedly their systems are probably rather more complicated though). First time I ever flew, Swanwick went down and I was held on the ground at Stansted for two hours. Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 10:52 #135118 | |
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Splodge
716 posts
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I believe in the case of Manchester Airport, when the old tower was in use, there was an emergency control tower on the field (basically a caravan/portakabin affair) which could be decamped to in the event of an emergency although it would inevitably take some time to get things prepared and capacity would be massively reduced without the visibility afforded for the tower and ground controllers. Approach was in a different floor so with a modern zonal fire alarm the odds of both approach and tower needing to evacuate would be unlikely, though there would be contingencies just in case! In the case of Sydney... have a listen! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCnmZk5SKA0 There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 11:06 #135122 | |
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whatlep
377 posts |
GeoffM in post 135097 said:[Split off thread]I'm not aware of an evacuation, but in terms of backup there are work-rounds by using other areas' facilities. See the outage reported here: https://www.nats.aero/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ATC%20Disruption%207%20Dec%2013%20-%20Report.pdf At the time of the outage (Dec 2013) there was a backup facility, but it would have taken 48 hours to bring online! Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 11:09 by whatlep Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 11:58 #135129 | |
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DavidSplett
142 posts |
GeoffM in post 135097 said:[Split off thread]London Underground has a designated back-up location for each of its control rooms. Certainly some of the latest ones have the ability to undertake signalling control, though for various reasons these can’t really run a full service. Staffing is always the biggest issue in these situations. Both the Jubilee and Northern lines have had to mobilise their back-up locations in recent history due to issues in the main control room - power surge in the case of the Jubilee, and minor electrical explosion in the case of the Northern. The system architecture also plays a part - for Seltrac the critical computers are all located in the main control room building, so if something affects these then it’s game over, the backup facility is then simply a co-ordination and radio centre. Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 12:01 by DavidSplett Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 23/12/2020 at 20:51 #135180 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
I was in WSSC when the Cathcart workstation started smoking heavily, which caused a fair bit of consternation. No flames though. Carlisle PSB was evacuated at the start of this month due to noxious fumes from roofing work and the signallers were out for about 4 or 5 hours. GeoffM in post 135097 said:
Swanwick and Prestwick act as backups for each other, we were shown the fallback workstations at Prestwick on a visit for an emergency exercise in 2018 - they were just being installed at that time. Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 20:54 by Ron_J Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 24/12/2020 at 08:21 #135193 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts |
DavidSplett in post 135129 said:Not all of them have rooms which are capable of running even fraction of the line - a fact actually proved just a few days ago when work on a power supply at one "modern" control room went slightly wrong... Nothing ran. Last edited: 24/12/2020 at 08:22 by metcontrol Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mldaureol |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 24/12/2020 at 10:11 #135197 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
metcontrol in post 135193 said:DavidSplett in post 135129 said:Not all of them have rooms which are capable of running even fraction of the line - a fact actually proved just a few days ago when work on a power supply at one "modern" control room went slightly wrong... So that's what happened. I did wonder. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mldaureol |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 09/01/2021 at 19:21 #136156 | |
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747skipper
4 posts |
Don't want to get off topic, but I had the privilege of joining in a training session at Swanwick. Each area of airspace has 4 or 5 operators and the radar picture, data displays, and all the comms, (radio and landlines to the next sector), are presented on a standard layout. If a group of displays goes down, the controller continues to control from memory, (now you know why pilots have such great respect for our U.K. controllers), whilst the others go to a spare group and boot it up as the failed sector. Within a minute or so they are up and running. Multiple failures would mean setting up a very limited service from Prestwick. The failures early in it's history, which made the papers, were actually GPO land line failures. Flight plans were still being processed at West Drayton and the flight progress strips printed at Swanwick. The total lack of these strips didn't affect aircraft in flight but did stop all departures in the U.K. for several hours. Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 13/02/2021 at 02:54 #137193 | |
sergio
2 posts |
In São Paulo Metro, Brazil, I know older lines (1 and 3) can be controlled directly by control rooms at some stations, each one controlling a section of the line, they are called "master stations". Station's staff operates these rooms when needed. Not all functions are available, specially those ones related to train regulation. Before CBTC line 2 used to be that way, I don't how it is now. The signalling centre itself has a fallback room outside the main building, located at a nearby station (Vergueiro), and it can be used when the main building need to be evacuated. In this case, who operates this room are staff from the signalling centre. Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 26/05/2021 at 22:14 #139740 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
Edinburgh Signalling Centre has been evacuated tonight because of smoke coming from a UPS downstairs. The signallers were outside for almost an hour before the SSM was allowed back onto the operating floor to try to move some of the many, many trains trapped into stations where possible. As of now, 2 hours later, the fire service commander still hasn’t let all the signallers back inside. Edited at 2345 to add that the box has now reopened Last edited: 26/05/2021 at 22:47 by Ron_J Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 27/05/2021 at 10:29 #139745 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
Good job that this happened late in the evening. Can you imagine the chaos if it happened during the rush hour?
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 27/05/2021 at 11:22 #139746 | |
elltrain3
369 posts |
Or happened when were not in a pandemic on a slightly reduced TT!
Resident Mock Maker! / "The Out Of Control Host" Log in to reply |
| What happens when a real signalling centre goes down? 27/05/2021 at 12:53 #139750 | |
DriverCurran
688 posts |
Red For Danger in post 134979 said:just out of interest, what would happen in a real signalling centre if the system went down for a period of time !In terms complying with the requirements of the ABC of railway safety crit comms (A - Accurate, B - Brief, C- Clear) the following to apply Brown foul stenching smelly stuff hits the great big whirly thing..... Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply The following user said thank you: jc92 |