Page 1 of 1
Question on Failures 17/10/2023 at 19:59 #153693 | |
j.a.g1
![]() 17 posts |
In SimSig, various failures may happen if the option is selected. But in real life, are these failures really common place? If I understand correctly, SimSig determines the number of failures at a certain time based on the difficulty setting selected (harder difficulty = more failures at a certain time), but in real life, are these failures really that common place? I come from the midlands, and rarely see signal/signalling failures listed as a reason for delays. However, from what I've seen, signalling failures seem quite frequent on the underground (news, tv, the like). I realise that might be simply media showing me the faults, but I am curious to know if signal equipment failures are really that common place, and how long it may take to fix a given problem? On a more niche note, I was wondering about a particular case: Say the lock to some points were faulty: the system has detected a fault with the lock, and subsequently no routes that require movement facing the points may be set/made. But say these points were to a single line branch: this means they would act as both facing and trailing points. In Absolute Block, facing point locks are not required when setting routes though trailing points. What would a TCB panel say? Would routes that cause the points to be trailing be allowed, and routes that cause the points to be facing not allowed? Would whole line simply be unusable? Note that in the failure above, the point motor still functions, but rather the lock does not. Perhaps the signalling system may not be sophisticated enough to realise that the fault is with the lock instead of the motor, and instead treats it as a total points failure? I am curious!!! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: tjtbcork |
Question on Failures 17/10/2023 at 20:32 #153696 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
j.a.g1 in post 153693 said:I can't give precise answers on failure rates, but I have seen delays and cancellations attributed to signal failures quite often. Bear in mind that the Underground, by its nature, is very sensitive to perturbations, so a failure will almost certainly cause delays if not a partial line suspension. By contrast, a failure on many parts of the network is more likely to cause small delays (which get lost as background noise); even if it leads to a line being effectively closed as the frequencies and volumes of passengers are less it simply isn't going to make the news. Plus the much higher bar generally for events outside the M25 to make headlines. That said, major failures do hit the headlines from time to time. Quote: In Absolute Block, facing point locks are not required when setting routes though trailing points. What would a TCB panel say? Would routes that cause the points to be trailing be allowed, and routes that cause the points to be facing not allowed? Would whole line simply be unusable?Take care- the method of working (AB/TCB) is irrelevant here; it relates to whether or not the points are worked by motor or by a lever/rodding. You can have motor worked points in AB areas and lever worked points in TCB areas. Quote: Perhaps the signalling system may not be sophisticated enough to realise that the fault is with the lock instead of the motor, and instead treats it as a total points failure?I would assume, given the risk of further damage to the points and possibly derailment, someone would be required to inspect and secure the points in the appropriate position before a move in the trailing direction was permitted. I'm not sure exactly how motor worked points are locked and detected, but (with inevitable exceptions) it isn't done the same way as a traditional facing point bolt going through a stretcher bar. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 17/10/2023 at 20:32 by Steamer Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: j.a.g1, KCRCRailway, TUT |
Question on Failures 17/10/2023 at 21:37 #153701 | |
j.a.g1
![]() 17 posts |
Interesting! It seems that with the spider-like branching of the national rail network, diversions are a much more viable solution compared to the underground, where many routes may use the same lines, and combined with the impressive frequency of trains, a failure would seem more catastrophic. Another scenario I thought of was this: The junction indicator on the signal does not work. Would this affect train runnings at all? The system is running as normal, but the feather lights do not show for branch lines. How is this approached? Log in to reply |
Question on Failures 18/10/2023 at 08:05 #153707 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
j.a.g1 in post 153693 said:In SimSig, various failures may happen if the option is selected.My experience is now many years old but I would say the Simsig failure rate is rather higher than I would have expected in real life. In my time as a signalman (that dates me LOL) it was easy to go for weeks without any failure in the signalling system (we'll pass over the omnibus phone between Gospel Oak/Junction Road and South Tottenham, used for circuiting goods trains). I was Station Manager at Enfield Town for a couple of years and, again, it was common for weeks to go by without my hearing of any significant failure (with three boxes on the patch - Hackney Downs, Seven Sisters and Enfield Town). Again we'll pass lightly over the 'Westronic' system by which Hackney controlled Clapton Junction; perhaps sufficient to say that I later learned its own installers in 1960-ish called it the 'catastronic'! So far as motor points are concerned, the system has no knowledge of what the motor itself is doing. It's all down to whether the points get detected at the end of their travel. No detection = no go, whether facing or trailing, unless the points have been wound and clipped in the correct position for the passage of the train. Mechanical points are a different matter. Facing points usually have a separate lever working the Facing Point Lock. (The Midland Railway was fond of so-called 'economical FPLs', worked by the same lever as the points, but in practice a failure scenario was little different.) If the points don't move fully home, the FPL bolt won't slide into its slot and the poor bobby will get a jolt when the lever stops partway through its travel. Once the FPL is in, there is a possibility the detection will have gone out of adjustment which will prevent the signal clearing. In either case application of the signalman's size 9 to the offending part of the mechanism will very often sort matters until the Sleep & Tea have attended to it; if not, you need a clip and you handsignal the train over it. With mechanical trailing points, the signalman may not know if the points haven't fully closed; provided the detection (if any) has made up, it can be used normally and if it hasn't you just handsignal the train without needing any further precautions. (At least, that's how 'twas done in my day.) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, j.a.g1 |
Question on Failures 18/10/2023 at 08:08 #153708 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
j.a.g1 in post 153701 said:Interesting! It seems that with the spider-like branching of the national rail network, diversions are a much more viable solution compared to the underground, where many routes may use the same lines, and combined with the impressive frequency of trains, a failure would seem more catastrophic.If the feather (or any other route indicator) doesn't illuminate, the signal will not clear. That is wired into the circuits. If more then 2 lights of a feather are out, the wiring is configured to consider it failed. Likewise (in the old theatre-type route indicators with individual lamps making up the display), if failed lamps could so mutilate the display as to be misread the circuitry would consider it failed and the signal would remain at danger. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: j.a.g1, TUT |
Question on Failures 18/10/2023 at 13:37 #153712 | |
TUT
![]() 514 posts ![]() |
Personally I would say that SimSig's rate of failures are not really very realistic. Now I don't really mean that as a criticism of SimSig because you can play with the sliders to your heart's content. You can also make your own if you want. But if you start a medium difficulty game on a large sim, the default failures that the game will serve you up are quite unrealistic. I mean, I remember playing London Bridge mini on normal difficulty and I just constantly had 2 or even 3 simultaneous failures which'd last about 20 minutes each and then as soon as one was fixed immediately something else would fail a minute or two later, almost as if it was deliberate. Now that's presumably to make for an engaging and interesting game for possibly multiple players. I'm not necessarily having a go. But no I don't think that's really very likely on the average day in the average signal box. So what is likely? Well if you work in a big panel box like the old London Bridge, West Hampstead, Doncaster, you know there are a lot of panels there controlling a lot of equipment and a lot of track. I don't doubt that it would be a treat to have a shift where nothing at all goes wrong even a little bit. I don't doubt that on a bad day you could easily have multiple problems, possibly even on just one panel, let alone across four, or five or more panels. But one after the other after the other after the other, as soon as the first one's fixed the next one coming a few minutes later, almost as though you were playing a game, that's not a normal day in the office. But if you work in a smaller box then you actually feel a bit unlucky if you have an equipment issue, as kbarber says. So what kinds of failures do happen. Cable theft failures taking out multiple signals and track circuits have been a big one in the Midlands, a very big one. Axle counters are a pain in the a**e, they go wrong a lot. Admittedly they can often be rest by the signaller straight away, or by a train going through, but they're awful. Hate them. Track circuits fail, swarf in the block joints is a common cause of that. Points can absolutely fail, you can lose detection, things can get caught in them, the motor can go. Level crossings can go wrong, barriers can fail or be hit by some of our less intelligent road users. The OHLE is a gem, things get caught in it, the wires can come down, absolutely awful stuff, hate it. Individual signals definitely fail, could indeed be the feathers as mentioned below. Another good one is track faults, broken rails things like that. Now how long does it take to fix them? Well normally a hell of a lot longer than on SimSig, although you can of course configure that yourself if you want. It obviously depends. It depends on how long it takes someone to get there and it depends on the job. Obviously with modernising maintenance it's gonna take an awful lot longer in the future because 3 person teams are going down to 2, people are going to be very restricted on climbing signals, it's gonna be a nightmare. Even now you often find that one team turns up to a fault but they don't have the required competency so they need a team who does, but that team is uncovered today or it books off in half an hour or it's elsewhere and it can't assist and so you have to wait all day. But our S&T and maintenance teams are generally fantastic people who are highly skilled and if it's urgent and if it's causing delay they will be there as quick as they can and will generally do a good job. It could be an easy fix and it could be all over in minutes. Sometimes of course like anything it turns out to be a big job and they need to go back to the depot for the parts. There's also access to consider. Sometimes, quite often in some places, they need a line blockage to do the fix and it just can't be done and it would cause more delay and disruption to do the line blockage and fix the fault than it would to just live with it until night time, so that's what they do, they live with it till night time, it all just depends. Sometimes faults fix themselves. I usually find if I report a fault S&T will be on the phone within minutes, they are very good, they'll try and diagnose or even help you fix it on the phone but sometimes they have to get out to you and that can take time. In fact you have to consider traffic on the roads. We get updates on road incidents so staff responding to incidents know to avoid, say, the M42. With the Underground as others have said it is in many ways a different beast because access is much, much more restricted with two death rails and the single-bore tunnels to think about. It is also extremely high frequency and there may be few options in the way of diverting around problems. So a little problem can have a big knock-on effect. Equipment can get hot in the tunnels as well. They also actually have a lot of signalling equipment per mile and it gets very intense use. So there's that. But there's something else as well. "Signal failure" is partly PR speak. It's something the public readily understands, that's why it tends to be given as an explanation. I believe even SPADs are sometimes referred to as "signal failures" to the public, because it gives a better impression. It's similar to "red signal". I remember being on a train sat at Henwick Signal Box's HK2 signal, which looks like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ickoonite/48510499412/ And the driver said we were waiting at a red signal. And I thought well, we're actually waiting at 2 red signals and 2 yellow ones, and given that it's day time the colour isn't really all that important. But that's what drivers are taught to say because that's what the public understands. They even use the phrase 'we're waiting at a red signal' on Underground lines that don't have any signals anymore. It's just what's best for public consumption. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: j.a.g1, postal, mldaureol, bill_gensheet |
Question on Failures 18/10/2023 at 17:23 #153713 | |
TUT
![]() 514 posts ![]() |
j.a.g1 in post 153693 said:On a more niche note, I was wondering about a particular case:So actually if you're interested what the rules say is that you may not allow a train carrying passengers to pass over points in the facing direction unless the points are locked by an FPL and locking bars or track circuits, or they have been clipped and scotched for the move. An ECS train or a freight train or a light loco or an engineering train or whatever can and will pass over facing points without FPLs all the time. Now if you're interested let's say you have a mechanical crossover with no FPLs. What'll happen is you will have a mechanical detector which will detect to very fine tolerance that the points are fully over. Now sometimes, especially if the points are a bit of a swine, you might get the lever all the way over (or all the way back) in the frame, but the points won't quite get detection. They won't quite be home. Then what will happen when you pull the lever for the ground disc is the signal lever will bounce on the detection and you'll know you've got to try again. But sometimes if you yank hard enough you can still get the signal lever all the way over even though you haven't got detection, but the ground disc won't move. So you have to watch your grund discs and feel your lever in your hand and make sure the ground disc moves. If it doesn't, you'll have to try the points again. It's a great sytem, it's so well-designed and perfectly safe. Now if your mechanical points are fitted with FPLs they will also have mechanical detection but if your points aren't over the FPL can't engage as kbarber says, so the FPL provides some rudimentary detection also. I don't think it's as precise, though. I believe it can be possible to get the FPL to engage and still not get the detection, but I could be wrong. Also mechanical points can be electrically detected and the electrical detection can be used to electrically lock signal levers and prevent you pulling them if the points aren't home. You can absolutely have that as well. Another thing that is very common in mechanical layouts is a mechanical crossover with an FPL on one end to allow passenger moves to be made over them back out of a platform. But no FPL will necessarily be provided on the other end of the crossover as that would only be used in the facing direction by trains shunting between platforms anyway so there's no real need for one. Or what you might have is a connection to a siding where facing passenger moves are made over the points leading to the siding in the normal position (not set for the siding) and facing ECS moves are made over the points leading to the siding in the reverse position (set for the siding). Here you can see an FPL is required on one end of crossover (the points leading from the mainline to the siding) as passenger trains will pass over it. And the locking in that case is likely to require the FPL be used with the points normal and reverse for the passenger move over the points normal and for the ECS move into the siding over the points reverse. This enforces compliance with the rule that FPLs fitted to facing points must always be used for "the passage of trains and, wherever possible, for shunting movements". However, at the siding outlet catch points (the other end of the crossover), even though those points will be facing to ECS moves from the siding, no FPL is required there because passenger moves won't be made over those points and the FPL acting on the other end of the crossover (trailing to ECS moves from the siding) will not need to be engaged to clear the outlet shunt signal. So moving on what would you do if you had an issue with the FPL and couldn't engage it. Well hopefully the first thing you would try is slamming the points back and over and seeing if you could sort it that way. But let's say the FPL is knackered or the points aren't going over or something like that. Well then the rule book says that you must arrange for them to be checked, although you may deal with the failed points yourself until a competent person or a signalling technician arrives. The person checking the points must make sure they are in the required position and that they are not damaged or obstructed. If you can do so, you must work the relevant levers to correspond with the required position of the equipment. You must do this even if the points or facing point lock (or both) are disconnected. You must not allow a train to pass over the defective points (that includes points which cannot be locked from the signal box, i.e.\ points with defective FPL) unless you can get the correct detection indicated on the points, or you have been given an assurance by the person checking the points that they are set in the correct position, they are not damaged or obstructed and they have been secured, if they are set for a facing movement. So if you have a mechanically operated set of points and you try to engage the FPL and it won't go in you treat the opints as defective. If you want to make a facing move over them you need to ensure they're set in the correct position are not damaged or obstructed and have been secured. If you wanted to make a trailing move over them they wouldn't have to be secured but would have to be in the correct position and undamaged and not obstructed. If you had no FPL you might have electrical detection and then if you can't get the required indications you would have to get them checked or check them yourself, make sure they're in the required position and not damaged or obstructed. You could then only run trains if you were able to get the correct detection indicated or if you had made sure they were in the correct position, not damaged or obstructed and were secured if the move was facing. The above applies with an FPL as well of course if you reverse the FPL lever and all seems well but you don't get the required indication or indeed if you can't reverse the FPL lever in which case the indications I'm familiar with will always show wrong if the FPL isn't engaged, even if the points are in the right place. If you have mechanical detection and you're not able to get the signal because it's bouncing on the detection and no matter what you do you can't make the detection you may need to swear and try harder. Some points can be hard to get over. Sometimes it takes several attempts. But if it's really not happening you'd get them checked, make sure they're in the required position and that they're not damaged or obstructed and then as above. So to your point, what if you had a mechanically operated set of points at a double-to-single line junction? Well if you were trying to get the FPL for a facing move and you encountered your problem, you'd need to work out whether you just didn't have the points fully over and so on. If it transpired you had an issue specifically with the FPL well you will need to get the points secured and you will need to work the levers. Now if the points were trailing and the FPL did not require to be pulled you wouldn't necessarily know you had a problem until you did try to pull the FPL and then once you found out about your problem when it next came to authorising a trailing move I'd say you'd be an idiot not to be very sure they were set in the correct position and were not damaged or obstructed. I'm not an expert on mechanical double-to-single line junctions. I do know that mechanical signals don't tend to detect trailing connections to the line they apply to. So if you have a trailing crossover between two main running lines the ground discs will detect the facing point they read over. The main running signals will not detect the trailing points they protect. I don't know if main running signals that read over trailing junctions detect the points. That would be quite interesting to know I'm not sure. Now power operated points. The rule book also says of defective power-operated points that you may "deal with" the failed points yourself until the cavalry arrives. But precisely how you deal with them I don't know cause I don't think you're allowed to hand crank them, although you are allowed to clip and scotch mechanically operated points if you're trained to do so. Now when it comes to your actual question, I mean I'm not an expert on power operated points mechanisms. I'm pretty sure in the past you could have a mechanical FPL worked by power, I think that was done. This https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/14974069382/ Is an interesting shot of the power points at Crewe in the days of the old power boxes there. But with modern designs of power operated points I understand the lock is usually integral and separating the one from the other isn't really "a thing" that we do. Now having said that I certainly don't know everything (or much actually) about all (or any really), but if you are interested there's a good little video on Facebook about clamplocks (which are an older design) https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1620000994869610 And this older document goes into some more details about designs that were then current. https://dickthesignals.co.uk/onewebmedia/55%20electrical%20detection%20&%20power%20points.pdf From what I can tell, with clamplocks I suppose theretically the points could move all the way over but the final part of the movement clamping the points could fail to complete, but it's not really something that would be indicated in the signal box and dealt with differently, although S&T might get an indication that that was the problem even without going there and seeing it was the problem for themselves. The rules that we do have pertaining to a failure of power operated points say that you must arrange for them to be checked (which you could do yourself if you weren't sat in York ROC looking at a failed set of points in the King's Cross throat as it is probably easier in that situation to get someone a bit closer to look) and if necessary operated by hand if you can't get normal or reverse indications which would be the case if they weren't properly locked. The points must be checked to see if they are in the normal or reverse position, if they are damaged or obstructed and if the point motor is still running (in which case they must be returned to their previous position to hopefully stop it running). Now depending on whether it is a simple failure (affecting one point end only, a single point end and co-acting trap point or both ends of a crossover) or a complex failure (affecting more point ends than a simple failure and any failure of a switch diamond or swingnose crossing) there are slightly different procedures and competencies involved in getting the required point ends operated by hand to the correct position, but we don't need to worry about that. Once they have all been operated by hand correctly you would then, if possible, operate the lever (which also stands for individual point switches on a panel or individual point controls on a computer screen) to correspond with the position the points are in. If you get detection you can clear the signal. If you can't get detection the points have to be secured with a clip and scotch if facing to the movement and secured if trailing to the movement, but only with a scotchblock (no clip in that case). In the case of a complex failure only those point ends on which you cannot get detection need be secured as above. This is the general procedure laid down and will be followed, I should have thought, regardless of what S&T can tell about precisely which bit has gone wrong. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: j.a.g1 |
Question on Failures 18/10/2023 at 18:15 #153715 | |
Jan
![]() 892 posts |
TUT in post 153712 said:I just constantly had 2 or even 3 simultaneous failures which'd last about 20 minutes each and then as soon as one was fixed immediately something else would fail a minute or two later, almost as if it was deliberate. It's a natural result if (in combination with the average duration of a failure) the failure rate is way too high in relation to the limit for the maximum number of simultaneous failures. What I've often done is put the failure rate sliders fully to the left, and then nudge them just one click to the right. That way you still get the occasional failure, maybe still more frequently than in reality, but no longer quite as ridiculously frequent. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
Question on Failures 18/10/2023 at 18:22 #153716 | |
TUT
![]() 514 posts ![]() |
Now while I rather optimistically assume I've got you all here (which admittedly is unlikely given my word count) and we're on the subject of failures in SimSig, I have actually long thought that the way SimSig does failures isn't quite what I personally would like it to be. Now, my understanding is that SimSig failures are based (a) on the sliders and (b) on certain probabilities which are weighted based on how much a bit of equipment is used, so the more that a track circuit is used, the more likely it is to fail. I'm sure there's more to it. But the result of this perfectly sensible approach is well that if you load up a big sim to play solo, with or without ARS, you're probably, even on medium difficulty, going to have simultaneous failures occuring one after the other after the other again and again and again with trains ringing up from awkward positions and declaring they won't move for 45 minutes in the middle of it all. Now some people might like that, especially if you're playing multiplayer and everyone wants a bit of seasoning in their meal. I understand that some people might have a different idea of fun even to me (and the mental multitasking is what attracts me to things like signalling) or that they might just be a lot better than me (which I'm sure is quite likely). But I suspect that what they're doing is for example dealing with a track circuit failure by just going through the motions in the menus with the mouse. It's just an arcade game. And that's of course fine, no problems there, but I like to try and practise the procedures I like to simulate the comms that would be done I like to caution the first train on an adjacent line and do it all properly. And as I like to play solo I don't necessarily want 2 or 3 failures at a time and a train stuck at a station for an hour and 3 late running freight trains for the whole of the timetable. That's not fun to me and it's not realistic either. Not that one person should be dealing with that all the time every time. Let me give an illustrative example. I once was playing Rugby South and I had a track circuit failure on the Up Slow and I thought ooh what fun. That's great, so I can use the Up Fast for non-stopping trains by diverting trains around the problem using the junctions, this should be good, I'm looking forward to managing this. And then before I even got a chance to do that, the parallel track circuit on the Up Fast precisely opposite the one on the Up Slow failed as well. What a shame. Because now it doesn't make any difference if I divert and try and work around, so I might as well not bother. Let me give another example. I was playing the original Liverpool Street station sim and I just constantly got problems on the Suburban and Fast lines around Bethnal Green, always the same problems. But this one time, this one golden time, I had a track circuit failure right in the station throat that left me with like 6 platforms or something and that was really good fun, but I messed it up and I put a train that was too long into one of the platforms and I decided that I was going to cheat and go back to my last save, but it was before the TCF and nothing like that ever happened again and that was a shame too. Mostly what happens is failures happen and then they get resolved a bit too quickly to really screw things up, or they happen either in a place where you can deal with it fairly easily and/or in the same places, and then they get resolved and then another one happens, and then another one and you never really get chance to recover the service and put things right and see the effect of the decisions you're making because there's always another failure. And generally a stuck train causes far more interesting hassle than the equipment failure, which possibly shouldn't be. So what would I like ideally? Well don't get me wrong. I'm aware that failures generally are and should be based on probabilities and chance with certain weightings. I believe the Victoria Line Sim has scripted faults that it gives you but I don't really expect that in general nor do I necessarily want it. I also know that you can select scenarios at start-up that you can use to take out a specific platform. So SimSig absolutely does that, but in general I understand that it shouldn't be scripted. But here's what I would like it to aim for. I may be alone, but it's what I think would be fun. I think it would be fun if things were weight in such a way that you get huge failures. TCF in the station throat at Liverpool Street right in the wrong place. Right now you've got to replatform loads of trains and you've got to use little-used crossovers and you've got to put trains in sidings that are used once a day in the timetable and you're really thinking and it's all going wrong. And it should take long enough to fix that you actually have to step in, you can't just wait for it to go away in 20 minutes and it should really mess things up. And then it should be fixed. And then you should have a few hours to put everything back and see the fruits of your labours and get things back on time and everything should be running smoothly and then when you least expect it (not 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes) after the last failure, it should all go wrong again. And I don't mean that it should be too obviously scripted like that. I'm happy for little extra failures that don't cause so much fuss and can be cleaned up quickly to happen at the same time as, or in between, the big ones and I'm happy if one train here or another train there should have an ill passenger or something like that. But I'd like the game to 9 times out of 10 give me a good puzzle to solve and then give me time to actually solve it and see the effects of my efforts and make a difference and get everything on time and then before it gets boring, it would be nice if it could all happen again. Now don't get me wrong, I don't know if that's in any way achievable and I don't want SimSig failures to be too well plotted. I just (personally, for me) think that that vision there is a better vision to aim for than just loadsoffailuresallatonceoneaftertheothermoremoremore. And I imagine it could be done by weighting certain key areas high, extending the time that failures last for, extending the time between failures a lot and making simultaneous failures, especially of 2 key areas much less likely. Now of course none of this is necessarily a flaw with SimSig as I have the power to alter the sliders. I can, once I've got a failure I like, prevent more failures from happening. I can, if I want, literally design my own puzzle by picking a likely-looking track circuit and occupying it myself for as long as I choose. But then why both with the difficulty settings at all. That seems a bit of a cheat to me, it's not quite the same as the game giving me a puzzle that I haven't picked for myself when I don't know when it's coming and leaving me to deal with it for a period of time that I don't get to choose. If I select medium difficulty it feels cheap to go into F3 and change things. I want to deal with what is served up to me. I just think medium could be a little bit more medium. At least I think it's worth considering different settings for solo play versus multiplayer of big sims so that multiplayer players can all have a puzzle if they want without the solo player having to deal with 3 people's puzzles on the supposedly medium difficulty. Just a thought. Last edited: 18/10/2023 at 18:23 by TUT Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Question on Failures 19/10/2023 at 08:35 #153722 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
Just to add to the fun, most of us who've been signalmen/ers will also have encountered the one particular track circuit or set of points that's forever failing and that can't be exorcised no matter what the techs do. I think it was 283 points at the old (1960) Barking Box that were in that category: facing from the down main to the down Tilbury (and in those days with switch diamonds in the up main), they were an absolute pig. There was also a TC at Euston (up slow at the south end of Primrose Hill Tunnel) that was known as a weather indicator. A friend related that it got so bad they gave the PWay and S&T a week's possession to sort it out (remove the track, dig out the bed, blanket and reballast and relay with new sleepers and everything); it worked - until the next time it rained, whereupon the track immediately dropped as hitherto. I'm sure folk can think of more. Is there any way that sort of thing could be simulated?
Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, jc92 |
Question on Failures 19/10/2023 at 12:17 #153726 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
Euston T66 *is* simulated in the sim.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
Question on Failures 19/10/2023 at 20:21 #153743 | |
metcontrol
![]() 217 posts |
Steamer in post 153696 said:I can't give precise answers on failure rates, but I have seen delays and cancellations attributed to signal failures quite often. Bear in mind that the Underground, by its nature, is very sensitive to perturbations, so a failure will almost certainly cause delays if not a partial line suspension. By contrast, a failure on many parts of the network is more likely to cause small delays (which get lost as background noise); even if it leads to a line being effectively closed as the frequencies and volumes of passengers are less it simply isn't going to make the news. Plus the much higher bar generally for events outside the M25 to make headlines. That said, major failures do hit the headlines from time to time.The Underground has a (sometimes not ideal) way of deciding if a line should advertise delays or not. In recent years there has been a tendency to shy away from showing lines as being fully "suspended" and rather "severely delayed." There are various trains of thought and different lines have different methods. A 3 minute shutdown on a high frequency line such as the Victoria is instantly shown as a delay message. On a lower frequency line such as the Metropolitan Line, that sort of delay wouldn't even be considered. I could talk all day of the various ins and outs and what is and isn't considered. Ever since certain other non LUL rail accidents occurred in the late 1990s/early 2000s, reasons for "failures" have changed. Indeed other definitions for other delays have been reviewed and changed over the years for rail industries nationwide and for different reasons. So in general, a lot of delay messages will be given as "signalling failure" regardless as to whether a signal has failed, a set of points has failed, or if it is a system failure which controls both signals or points or neither. Delay messages have moved to give a reason which does not cause alarm, but in doing so can sometimes not be strictly 100% honest. In terms of the original post, whenever I have adjusted the sliders on SimSig with the intent to have either a busy or quiet shift (asking for the latter in the real world generally provides the former I find) I do feel I generally get what I asked for. Set everything to maximum will give you lots of failures, which may or may not be typical of a real-life shift. But in our real-life shifts we do not have the luxury of playing God and setting the sliders to see what we get. I think the settings should be more considered as that luxury and if you set them high, be prepared to "earn your keep" on that shift. Log in to reply |
Question on Failures 20/10/2023 at 10:57 #153752 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
clive in post 153726 said:Euston T66 *is* simulated in the sim.I suspect 'Thank you' may not be the response everybody has... :-) Log in to reply |
Question on Failures 20/10/2023 at 21:13 #153754 | |
j.a.g1
![]() 17 posts |
Well that was a lot more information than I was expecting! I will certainly have to read through this thread again multiple times, I doubt anyone can absorb all that in one go, never mind a simple enthusiast like me! I do appreciate it, learning about this stuff fascinates me so I must thank everyone for their responses. I am learning that a typical signalman is a lot more “hands on” that I originally thought. Granted my only experience is through computer simulations, which can obviously only simulate so much, but even so I am beginning to realise how much is “on the plate”, so to speak, for signallers. I thought it would be a lot of checking signals, setting routes, looking at timetables, stuff you do alone in the box. And possibly every now and again get a phone call about a crossing or a delay. But it seems like there’s so much more to deal with: failures, communicating these failures (and possibly having ago at fixing them yourself as previously mentioned), timetable changes, reports from train drivers, SPADs, the list goes on. One likes to think that they can manage after a bit of sim experience, but this is far from the truth! Log in to reply |
Question on Failures 21/10/2023 at 05:08 #153756 | |
geswedey
![]() 199 posts |
We haven't even touched on the work involved in implementing engineering possessions and power isolations. As an ex Guards and Signalling instructor (Drivers rules at the time were similar to Guards) who had to pass stringent initial and biennial rules exams I know which was the hardest the Signallers. Local info like route and traction knowledge add to the Drivers and Guards requirements as do Signalbox instructions for Signallers, but the complexity of those depend on the work location. Glyn Glyn Calvert ACIRO Last edited: 21/10/2023 at 05:09 by geswedey Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: j.a.g1 |
Question on Failures 21/10/2023 at 10:55 #153757 | |
Soton_Speed
![]() 283 posts |
TUT in post 153713 said:For the purposes of this rule were TPOs, Officer's Specials, loco plus inspection saloon etc. defined as 'passenger' trains? The rule implies a different level of safety for railway employees vs the travelling public. In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply |
Question on Failures 21/10/2023 at 17:14 #153758 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
Soton_Speed in post 153757 said:TUT in post 153713 said:I have a feeling TPOs were considered to be carrying passengers. Officers' specials, route learners and such would be considered non passenger carrying (but such movements would in any case be advised by special notice, or at the very least by a telegraph message, so anything out of the ordinary would be dealt with then).For the purposes of this rule were TPOs, Officer's Specials, loco plus inspection saloon etc. defined as 'passenger' trains? Just to add to the fun, there used to be a clause in the General Appendix (of all places) giving a general authority (in certain circumstances) for passenger trains to be moved over points that became facing without securing them, provided the movement was made at slow speed and the points could be kept under observation by the signalman during the movement. The circumstances were quite restrictive as I recall, I suspect the intent was to allow shunting of a stopper to the opposite line for an express to pass (the fatal shunt at Quintinshill) though it wasn't explicitly said. I think it was probably removed in the mid-1980s but I'm open to correction on that. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
Question on Failures 22/10/2023 at 00:48 #153763 | |
postal
![]() 5216 posts |
kbarber in post 153758 said:I have a feeling TPOs were considered to be carrying passengers.Certainly in the latter years of the TPOs (post 1990) one of the clauses in the Royal Mail/BR and Royal Mail/EWS contracts was a payment in lieu of "fares" for the TPO staff carried as passengers on the TPOs. IIRC the reasoning was that the Royal Mail employees travelling without the status of passengers were not BR or EWS staff so were not covered under the insurance policies carried by BR or EWS. As long as they were paying passengers, they were covered under the Public Liability provisions of the same insurance policies. The issue of the "fares" charged under the contract then allowed some opportunities for negotiation because of the VAT regulations. The "fares" were zero-rated for VAT purposes while the other parts of the contract were for the purposes of trade and were charged at the standard VAT rate. Once the total contract price nett of VAT was agreed then the horse-trading about the "fares" started. The greater the amount fudged within the total sum for the "fares" the less the VAT to be paid on the contract so the smaller the cash outflow for Royal Mail. Part of the "fares" element also covered the need to position the crews on the five night lodging turns where the TPO crews travelled as passengers on normal service trains to the far end of their service on the Monday then worked back overnight followed by two round trips over the following four nights. Another part of the "fares" element of the contract which benefited me personally was the provision in the contract for a number of first-class all stations permits for those in the Royal Mail management who required to travel in order to carry out their duties in regard to the management of the Royal Mail/BR and Royal Mail/EWS contracts. Only to be used in direct performance of those duties and not for commuting or purely internal Royal Mail business but it was a privilege that I very much enjoyed for over ten years. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Soton_Speed |
Question on Failures 22/10/2023 at 07:32 #153764 | |
Giantray
![]() 342 posts |
j.a.g1 in post 153693 said:In SimSig, various failures may happen if the option is selected.Having worked AB/TCB, Levers, NX & WestCad over my 40 year career, no matter wat system, what method Facing Point(FP) is detected by, all FP failures are treated the same. No facing moves unlesss the points are secured in the positioned required for the facing movement using clip & scotch. In a mechanical box where a Facing Point Lock (blue) Lever is used, the Signaller be aware that it is a FP failure because they might not get the lever to fully travel to its position. With electrically operated points in AB/TCB, levers, NX and WetsCAd the only indication that a set of points have failed is points being indicated as Out of Correspondence, not making up in the position required. Then the only way it can be found out to be a FP failure is by the S&T techs going to the set of points concerned and finding the fault. Points are monitored by remote computer systems, but this is limited to movement. They detect the speed points move over and alert if there is a reduction in this speed. It is designed to detect failures before they occur, a kind of preventative maintenance. A common problem that we got in busy areas like London Bridge, was where a set of points had very few moves in one particular direction. You would then get uneven wear of oneside of the Switch & stock rails. This would get to a point whereby a memebr of the Pway inspecting them would bar facing movement in one direction (normal or reverse) or even both. The Signaller could have the points secured in the direction the points could be used in. But if there are trailing moves required using the direction barred in the facing direction, the points would be required to be left unsecured to allow the trailing move. In this case, the Signaller can use a RT3187, signalling equipment disconnetion to have routes over the barred facing move disconnected. Often we have had points that are only ever used in the trailing direction, barred for facing moves. What the signaller has to remember here is that whilst there are no signalled moves over the trailing points in the facing direction, the Signaller would in times of failure authorise wrong direction moves without signalliing throgh trailing points in the facing direction, so they need to remember any set of points that are barred for facing moves. What we have to remember here. Simsig is a game, it is not real life, it is not a full on Simulation. I have trained Signallers on simulators. Whilst the display setup is very similar, what you do not have are all the phone calls, people, incidents, paper work and other duties the Signaller has to deal with during failures, day to day running, engineering works etc. You can pause Simsig, you cannot real life. Having spent three decades signalling trains in the Charing Cross, Cannon Street, London Bridge Area I could count on one hand how many days I have had without there being some sort of failure. Some days you would have multiple failures, either together or consequetively. Multiple failures together require a lot of attention, calmness and ensurance you are doing things corrrectly. There are locations where failures always occur, and we work through the failure, less so today. I have lost count the number of shifts I had to flag trains through a failed track circuit for an entire shift, talking to over 500+ train drivers during those shifts, the sdvent of PoSA signals have helped reduce those phone calls. Today TOCs tend to inconvenience passengers and either reduce the service, cancel it or divert to some other location. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: j.a.g1 |