Page 1 of 1
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 10/01/2024 at 16:36 #155020 | |
jimbo1999
![]() 4 posts |
If a starting signal is cleared on a platform where a train is standing, but the signaller has accidentally cleared the wrong signal (perhaps on an adjacent platform to the intended signal), is there a way the signaller could, within the rules, contact the "wrong" train and reset the signal back to danger, thus allowing him to clear the signal for the right platform without waiting for the "wrong" train to depart first? I ask as I've made that mistake in SimSig a few times now and either had to reset the signal to danger incurring a penalty (even though the train is at a stand and not ready to depart for a while) or wait until the train has left, delaying the train which should have been cleared in the first place. If there was a mechanism to warn the driver it was going to happen and not incur a penalty (like when the driver phones to say they're delayed) it would be very useful. And yes I should just learn to set the right signal in the first place... Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 10/01/2024 at 18:15 #155022 | |
lucya
![]() 15 posts |
Using the GSM-R, the signaller can contact the driver. If there's no response from the GSM-R, and the signaller deperately needs to take the signal back, they can ask station staff to check if there is actually a driver.
Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 10/01/2024 at 19:03 #155025 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
In SimSig, if you put the signal back with more than 10 minutes before departure time (I think) you won't get a score penalty for replacing it in front of the train. Note that the signal will still time out, as it would in real life, because the interlocking has no idea if it's a train that was otherwise about to depart or a set of stabled coaches that couldn't move anyway. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 10/01/2024 at 19:04 by Steamer Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 11/01/2024 at 09:07 #155032 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
Back in the day the procedure would be to contact station staff and have them advise the driver the signal was to be returned to danger, then await confirmation the message had been received or that there was no driver. Which might, perhaps, be a feature request (with the time between initiating a 'tell driver signal is being returned' and confirmation coming back being era-dependent and very much longer for pre-GSM-R eras - how about it Geoff or Clive?) Which brings to mind something that I was told of Euston panel (the 1965 one Clive has simulated). All the points in the station throat were electro-pneumatic and *very* fast acting. There were also a number of locations where buttons were close together one above t'other on parallel lines. Apparently it was very easy, even for an experienced signalman, to get the wrong button; when that happened, in contrast to an installation with motor points or clamp locks, the route would set and the signal clear before it was possible to respond to the mistake and pull up the entrance button. One source said it was realised to be such a problem that the operation of the panel at New Street was deliberately slowed down so the signalmen had at least an outside chance of not locking themselves up mid-peak! Last edited: 11/01/2024 at 09:08 by kbarber Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mldaureol |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 11/01/2024 at 12:18 #155033 | |
ajax103
![]() 1113 posts |
kbarber in post 155032 said:Back in the day the procedure would be to contact station staff and have them advise the driver the signal was to be returned to danger, then await confirmation the message had been received or that there was no driver. Which might, perhaps, be a feature request (with the time between initiating a 'tell driver signal is being returned' and confirmation coming back being era-dependent and very much longer for pre-GSM-R eras - how about it Geoff or Clive?)On average, from past experience that was still a daily occurrence at least two places I know of so not restricted to BR days. Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 11/01/2024 at 13:42 #155034 | |
Splodge
![]() 710 posts |
lucya in post 155022 said:Using the GSM-R, the signaller can contact the driver. If there's no response from the GSM-R, and the signaller deperately needs to take the signal back, they can ask station staff to check if there is actually a driver.Exactly this. I was at Stoke in the bay last week, hadn't set the cab up so GSMR wasn't on. Station staff came up, saw I was there and asked me to contact the signaller as he wanted to put the signal back. Generally the GSMR will go first if you're set up as this indicates that the cab is active and a driver is present, saving time but station staff will still be advised so they don't start any dispatch procedures. There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 11/01/2024 at 17:24 #155036 | |
jimbo1999
![]() 4 posts |
Thanks all. It's good to know this happens IRL and it's not just me! I wasn't aware of the "10 minute before departure time" rule but that's good to know. Unfortunately most of my mistakes tend to be clearing an on-time stopper just as a late running express is pulling into the adjacent platform, so that wouldn't help a huge amount in that scenario. Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 11/01/2024 at 20:40 #155037 | |
postal
![]() 5216 posts ![]() |
jimbo1999 in post 155036 said:Thanks all. It's good to know this happens IRL and it's not just me!In the modern fragmented world with everyone standing on their due rights and paths that is just as likely to happen by policy as it is to happen by accident. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 09:36 #155060 | |
Dionysusnu
![]() 576 posts ![]() |
kbarber in post 155032 said:Which brings to mind something that I was told of Euston panel (the 1965 one Clive has simulated). All the points in the station throat were electro-pneumatic and *very* fast acting. There were also a number of locations where buttons were close together one above t'other on parallel lines. Apparently it was very easy, even for an experienced signalman, to get the wrong button; when that happened, in contrast to an installation with motor points or clamp locks, the route would set and the signal clear before it was possible to respond to the mistake and pull up the entrance button. One source said it was realised to be such a problem that the operation of the panel at New Street was deliberately slowed down so the signalmen had at least an outside chance of not locking themselves up mid-peak!Would I be right in thinking that even if the signaller realised the mistake within a second, pulling the signal so it only "flashes" to proceed for a handful of seconds would be a major no-no? What about a wrong route at a junction where taking it would cause more severe disruption, not wanting to count on the driver to realise it cleared to a wrong route? Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 10:10 #155063 | |
Giantray
![]() 342 posts |
kbarber in post 155032 said:Back in the day the procedure would be to contact station staff and have them advise the driver the signal was to be returned to danger, then await confirmation the message had been received or that there was no driver. Which might, perhaps, be a feature request (with the time between initiating a 'tell driver signal is being returned' and confirmation coming back being era-dependent and very much longer for pre-GSM-R eras - how about it Geoff or Clive?)Cannon Street Station (London Bridge ASC) was changed to Solid State Interlocking in 1991. Signallers had been used to working WestPac relay interlocking. It was slow enough that had a Signaller set the wrong route, they could quickly pull it up when the signal indication was still red. However, Cannon Street's new interlocking was so fast, the route would set and the signal change on the ground before the indications in the box showed this. The result was changes of aspects to trains. So signallers had to remember on Cannon Street that once the route had been called that was it, too late to stop it and change your mind. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 10:28 #155065 | |
Giantray
![]() 342 posts |
[/quote]Would I be right in thinking that even if the signaller realised the mistake within a second, pulling the signal so it only "flashes" to proceed for a handful of seconds would be a major no-no? What about a wrong route at a junction where taking it would cause more severe disruption, not wanting to count on the driver to realise it cleared to a wrong route?[/quote] Yes a no no because station staff, driver, guard if one, may have in that brief moment seen the signal change up from Danger and may not look at it again and seen it revert to Danger. There was an incident at Cuxton in the early 1980s. A Halling Freight was being run around in Cuxton station and the engine was ready to cross over. The Signaller at Cuxton saw the engine had drawn clear of the crossover, pulled over the points, pulled the shunt dummy but could not get the lever fully over. So decided that the points may not be fully over, they had a habit of not going over fully and preventing the dummy from being pulled by mechanical locking on the ground. Meanwhile, the driver of the engne, seeing the points over in the correct position, looked at the dummy briefly, saw it twitch and they took power and started proceeding over the points. The first bogie had cleared the points going the right direction, but because the signaller could not fully get the dummy off, retried the points, pulled them normal under the moving engine and the rear bogies took the other direction and eventually the engine dropped off the rails. Even though there were track circuits, it being a mechanical area, the points were not locked by track circuit, had they been the points would not have been possible to move. Nowadays, modern interlocking is good and such things should not happen. Just giving a brief change on an aspect is a no no because someone may see it and act on it. Fortunately in today's signalling, the route will be locked so no movement of points or setting of conflicting routes can occur, but a SPAD could happen with the resultant delays in dealing with it. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 11:09 #155066 | |
Andy174
![]() 94 posts |
Interesting that you should mention Cuxton, I had a similar thing in the late 80's at New Hythe setting back into Brookgate with a 56. The signalman for some reason thought we were in the clear & put the road back underneath us derailing one of the bogies. Shut the branch up for the rest of the day!
Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 12:03 #155068 | |
Giantray
![]() 342 posts |
Andy174 in post 155066 said:Interesting that you should mention Cuxton, I had a similar thing in the late 80's at New Hythe setting back into Brookgate with a 56. The signalman for some reason thought we were in the clear & put the road back underneath us derailing one of the bogies. Shut the branch up for the rest of the day! I remember this well. I also know the Signaller involved. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 17:04 #155073 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
Dionysusnu in post 155060 said:kbarber in post 155032 said:Depends how far off the train is when you pull off. If the train is sitting at the signal, you'd basically had it; you had to wait for the driver to ring in and call you something unprintable. On the other hand, if the driver went wrong route it was all down to them even though it was you who'd pulled off the wrong 'un.Which brings to mind something that I was told of Euston panel (the 1965 one Clive has simulated). All the points in the station throat were electro-pneumatic and *very* fast acting. There were also a number of locations where buttons were close together one above t'other on parallel lines. Apparently it was very easy, even for an experienced signalman, to get the wrong button; when that happened, in contrast to an installation with motor points or clamp locks, the route would set and the signal clear before it was possible to respond to the mistake and pull up the entrance button. One source said it was realised to be such a problem that the operation of the panel at New Street was deliberately slowed down so the signalmen had at least an outside chance of not locking themselves up mid-peak!Would I be right in thinking that even if the signaller realised the mistake within a second, pulling the signal so it only "flashes" to proceed for a handful of seconds would be a major no-no? Log in to reply |
Setting back to danger while train is in the platform 14/01/2024 at 20:49 #155076 | |
jc92
![]() 3649 posts |
The other phenomena in mechanical areas is pulling off in front of a driver and getting a wrong indication, ie signals off but not a full 35+ degree move. The option is there to put the lever back 1/3ish of its travel and reverse it again which normally moves it fully off, however there is always the risk the arm will drop back in the drivers face for a few seconds. It doesn't always do so. More often than not, it's easier in that case to let the driver decide whether to take it at half cock, or stop, call and confirm the aspect. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |