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| Notification of support ending for some simulations 01/05/2024 at 18:29 #156155 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts 
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We, at SimSig, have supported several free/donationware simulations for many years now - in many cases for more than a decade. But we also have an ever-growing number of paid simulations that we need to support and it is not humanly possible to do both. To that end, we have compiled a set of end-of-support dates for free/donationware simulations, and for some of our older paid simulations. In many cases, there are currently no open Mantis tickets but this is not an invitation to start fault-finding or asking for new features or eras. Many of these sims have already had new versions released within the last year. We do not plan to withdraw any simulations marked for end-of-support. They will still be available to download and, where relevant, to purchase. Paid-for simulations will remain paid-for and licenses will still be required. Occasionally a simulation that is past its end-of-support date may yet receive an update, most likely if an adjacent sim needs to be chained to it. The following simulations have previously been announced or mentioned as unlikely to have further updates: King’s Cross, Liverpool Street (station). The following simulations will have an end-of-support on July 31st 2024: Brighton (NOT Three Bridges), Carlisle, Chicago Loop, Derby, Exeter, Liverpool Lime St, Llangollen, North East Wales, North Wales Coast, Saltley, Stafford, Swindon/Didcot, Waterloo (NOT Wimbledon), Westbury. The following simulations will have an end-of-support on October 31st 2024: Coventry, Feltham, Horsham, Huddersfield, Huyton & St. Helens, West Hampstead, West Yorkshire, Wolverhampton. The following simulations will have an end-of-support on January 30th 2025: Leeds Ardsley, Leeds NW, LTS, Marylebone, Oxford, Watford Jn, York N/S. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: mldaureol, HST125Scorton, raygun, haydenrobertson, eps125, Hap, dhouk, moonraker, Philo, LaMoye, Intercity_225 |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 01/05/2024 at 19:46 #156157 | |
raygun
12 posts |
unfortunate things like this need to happen but grateful for the amount of support given to these sims!
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| Notification of support ending for some simulations 01/05/2024 at 19:49 #156158 | |
HST125Scorton
1191 posts
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That's a few simulations, but the move I do support. Hopefully new sims and updates to the remaining payware sims will continue. Will Carlisle get it's final issues fixes before 31st July 2024 though?.
Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 02/05/2024 at 18:58 #156171 | |
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jonathanp
19 posts |
It's unlikely I know, but if a future update to the loader contained a change which unexpectedly caused major new problems in an unsupported simulation, does this mean that would you withdraw the simulation rather than fix the loader?
Last edited: 02/05/2024 at 18:59 by jonathanp Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 02/05/2024 at 22:55 #156172 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts
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HST125Scorton in post 156158 said:Will Carlisle get it's final issues fixes before 31st July 2024 though?.I suspect developers would prefer to update newer, paid-for sims than concentrate on a free sim that's had over 14 years of free updates. jonathanp in post 156171 said: It's unlikely I know, but if a future update to the loader contained a change which unexpectedly caused major new problems in an unsupported simulation, does this mean that would you withdraw the simulation rather than fix the loader?While it has occasionally happened where a change affected some sims, obviously we try to avoid such things, and roll back or amend the Loader if it does happen. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: HST125Scorton |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 02/05/2024 at 23:53 #156173 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
What's the situation with regards to support to packaged timetables? Presumably they won't be upgraded to take advantage of newer features (such as set down types). Will they still be supported for chaining purposes, for instance where global decisions need to be added, an errant consist corrected, or a missing alternative added?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 03/05/2024 at 17:08 #156184 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts
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jc92 in post 156173 said:What's the situation with regards to support to packaged timetables? Presumably they won't be upgraded to take advantage of newer features (such as set down types). Will they still be supported for chaining purposes, for instance where global decisions need to be added, an errant consist corrected, or a missing alternative added?Groundhog timetables are a little more complex. When support for a sim ends, don't expect the timetables with that sim to be updated either. The master datasets we use will continue to get updates, just not necessarily the sims that extract from those datasets. Think of it this way: a freight runs from Wembley Yard to Coatbridge and we discover that it should have had a decision, or the consist wasn't quite right, you now have 12 (?) simulations to update and test, 12 x ~27 hours, except probably more as we need to at least check the seeds as well (typically 2-3). That's just not practical, or sensible when some of those timetables have been out for many, many years. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 04/05/2024 at 10:23 #156186 | |
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raygun
12 posts |
could notes be added to these sims (and any others where support has ended) just to so that people know before purchase that it's no longer supported?
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| Notification of support ending for some simulations 04/05/2024 at 11:01 #156187 | |
flabberdacks
636 posts |
raygun in post 156186 said:could notes be added to these sims (and any others where support has ended) just to so that people know before purchase that it's no longer supported?I don't think it really changes the end user experience. We all do our best to make sure all issues that can be addressed are addressed and then that's that. Don't know if a message is necessary. Might turn people off buying a really good old sim. Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 04/05/2024 at 14:19 #156190 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
flabberdacks in post 156187 said:raygun in post 156186 said:It does if someone buys a non supported one which chains to a new one with the expectation they can chain them, only to find out the non supported one is missing the odd train in a GHD and it won't be fixed.could notes be added to these sims (and any others where support has ended) just to so that people know before purchase that it's no longer supported?I don't think it really changes the end user experience. We all do our best to make sure all issues that can be addressed are addressed and then that's that. Don't know if a message is necessary. Might turn people off buying a really good old sim. The other unclear point here which has been raised off forum by several others is that several listed sims have outstanding bugs not rectified in existing releases. Is a guarantee provided to a potential buyer that they're going to get a fix prior to support being dropped. As someone whos bought a ton of unsupported legacy games on platforms like steam, it's not a deterrent to purchase, but I think a fair expectation has to be set with a customer. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 04/05/2024 at 14:21 by jc92 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, raygun, 0D07, AlexH, TimTamToe |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 04/05/2024 at 14:52 #156191 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
I am not going to get into a debate about policy, as a tester I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to comment either way. What I would say is if others have an issue off-forum then they are of course always best to raise them on the forum rather than either through proxies or on unofficial channels. Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 04/05/2024 at 17:06 #156193 | |
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0D07
91 posts |
To be fair that is a very valid point that you make JC92. I would be nice to see a some clarification if the outstanding fixes will be carried out in time before support is ended. I hope going forward that the testing of sims is done differently I know from wring timetables that anything that is multi era only the most modern tends to be tested thoroughly. I appreciate that a TT has to be created to test it but a loco or a train could be tested and in the other eras to assist with the ridding of sim bugs and other anomalies on the sim. I know I have York N/S TT ready to go but there are a few issues that still need sorting on that with open Mantis Tickets and same with Doncaster North and I a few on Doncaster Station still have open tickets. Regards, Zero Delta Zero Seven Log in to reply The following user said thank you: wellgroomed |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 04/05/2024 at 17:31 #156194 | |
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TUT
532 posts
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On the subject of GHD timetables it appears to me that we have a slightly disappointing state of affairs at the moment which I would have hoped would be resolved in due course. With the release of Crewe SimSig now covers the entire route from the buffers at Euston to the buffers at Holyhead, which is really quite something. I don't think it's quite possible to perfectly simulate reality in terms of eras, but that's something you can overlook. However will the sims are there the timetables aren't. And without a timetable to run what is a sim to the average user but an overengineered signalling diagram? If we go to North Wales Coast (which is on the list) we can only choose from a 2009 and a 2015 timetable. The Rugby sims only give us 2009, as does Wembley Mainline. But Staffordshire only has 2015 and 2019 and Crewe only 2015. I believe user-contributed GHD timetables are officially discouraged so that seems a bit of a shame. As does the fact that Swindon (a really great sim) has never had any GHD timetable. Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 05/05/2024 at 12:01 #156200 | |
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slatteryc
254 posts |
Folks in order to comment can we get some clarity 1. What does Out of Support Mean ? 2. Will they be withdrawn from the store or open sourced In my own work Out of Support means "no code fixes will be provided" but that is not the same thing as no support will ever be given. and that rule has been broken several times e.g. for security fixes in new OS releases Also with the combo of the loader and the sim itself I presume this will be a road to navigate like any other Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 05/05/2024 at 12:53 #156201 | |
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njimiller
141 posts |
slatteryc in post 156200 said:Folks in order to comment can we get some clarityDoesn’t Geoff’s original message clarify all of that? Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, Stephen Fulcher, wulf |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 05/05/2024 at 17:55 #156204 | |
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slatteryc
254 posts |
no ?
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| Notification of support ending for some simulations 05/05/2024 at 18:10 #156205 | |
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eps125
145 posts |
slatteryc in post 156200 said:Folks in order to comment can we get some clarity1. What does Out of Support Mean ? Effectively this means that there will be no further updates to the simulation itself except in the circumstances Geoff has mentioned: Quote: Occasionally a simulation that is past its end-of-support date may yet receive an update, most likely if an adjacent sim needs to be chained to it.2. Will they be withdrawn from the store or open sourced ? Quote: We do not plan to withdraw any simulations marked for end-of-support. They will still be available to download and, where relevant, to purchase. Paid-for simulations will remain paid-for and licenses will still be required.Cheers Last edited: 05/05/2024 at 18:10 by eps125 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: njimiller, TUT, Hap |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 20/05/2024 at 23:35 #156332 | |
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RailwayFan8
6 posts |
Really unfortunate to see Marylebone on there. It has many many amazing timetables. Is there any chance an updated double track to Oxford era will come out and the minor track layout changes at Harrow getting reflected before we get to 2025?
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| Notification of support ending for some simulations 22/05/2024 at 06:17 #156339 | |
Guts
604 posts |
I’m guessing a no, but was there any options to update Saltley and Derby or even make these updates paid for. I’m thinking of them in terms of Stourbridge’s newer era chaining better to Saltley as the service changed after 2010 with the reopening of the bay platforms. We then have Derby and Saltley which chain for possible updated eras and timetables, plus there was talk of Trent being put into Loader and this chains to Derby and Sheffield. My main thinking here is that we will possibly have Sims of the entire country soon but they won’t all be able to chain timetable wise. TUT made a good point that many of the newer Sims don’t have timetables to operate with older Sims because of a lack of available chainable timetables Saltley is a good example as it can’t operate newer timetables without fictional moves. I’m hoping as are many others that we will in some way be able to future proof, for additional Sims as they get added, which for Saltley could hopefully mean Gloucester arriving on the Loader at some point, completing the link to Newport and ‘future’ Bristol. These are just my thoughts Last edited: 22/05/2024 at 06:19 by Guts Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Banners88, TimTamToe, peterb |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 23/05/2024 at 17:19 #156340 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
As others have said, it does seem relatively short sighted, to have sims that chain together, but not providing the timetables to enable them to be run and relying on users to produce them, themselves to do the job. In my opinion it comes across a bit half hearted in that we have a GHD tt, that could go buffer to buffer but you have a chaining black hole in the middle in terms of timetabling. Yes Sim X and Y will chain, you just have to write your own stuff to do it. If it means, more time is spent on testing then maybe it's a good thing as I've noticed over the past 2-3 years, with the increase in number of sims available, there also seems to have been an increase of errors slipping through the net and many sims requiring fixes in the days after release. Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 02/06/2024 at 12:36 #156453 | |
9pN1SEAp
1180 posts |
It would be nice to have a lengthened (P2) bay era at Huddersfield, even if nothing else gets done. Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 02/06/2024 at 16:32 #156454 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
TimTamToe in post 156340 said:Much of this is down to the 'back office' side of GHD timetables. They are created from a database of all the trains on GHD for the whole country and then go through a filtering / importing workflow, which in some / many (?) cases means change to the receiving sim to get a clean import. On a new sim that is a non-trivial part of the test/fix cycle before release. I do not know how 'bad' an attempt at importing is on an old sim, but even if fixed manually it would then not be able to be updated with any database changes or the next GHD. Also bear in mind some of the PSB simulated no longer existed at the more recent GHD's - eg Saltley. Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 08/06/2024 at 09:44 #156504 | |
Champs450007
97 posts |
Post Deleted
Last edited: 08/06/2024 at 09:50 by Champs450007 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 18/06/2024 at 10:42 #157611 | |
Simdmuk
155 posts |
I have a couple of questions... As the non supported sims will be still available via the loader , I am correct in assuming that any changes to timetable functions would be available for all timetables, regardless of the sims being supported or non supported ? A tongue in cheek example is say in the future, SimSig introduces the function the place cows on the line in timetable editing, would that function be available for the non supported sims ? Or would they end up like the old exe sims ? 2nd Question, are the non supported freeware sims likely to be reproduced as pay ware sims? Its a bit disappointing on a personal level that 3 out of the 4 areas I've lived and worked in in will now be non supported . Log in to reply |
| Notification of support ending for some simulations 18/06/2024 at 11:57 #157612 | |
Steamer
3984 posts |
Simdmuk in post 157611 said:I have a couple of questions...Features like that would be available on all simulations. For example, the recent ability to apply reminders to track circuits directly was part of a Loader update and could immediately be done on all simulations. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 18/06/2024 at 11:59 by Steamer Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: sunocske, Simdmuk |