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| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 06:49 #1804 | |
barry106
14 posts |
I've recently discovered Wembley Suburban and had a go at running it. I've also had a quick scroll through the topics so apologise if my observations have already been raised. I didn't see any. 1. In the timetable with the Sim I couldn't find any Bakerloo Lone trains that terminate at Queens Park but lots that terminate at Willesden Junction. Not the service as I know it. The movements bit of the manual would seem to agree with me. I can see why this is as: The layout at Queens Park in the SIM, as far as I know, isn't correct. a. there should be 2 stabling lines to the west of the platforms which the terminating trains use to reverse and through trains run through to and from the north where there is a connection to the tracks used by the Euston/Watford services. b. There is also a shed to the east; I think it has 2 roads. I don't know their use but presume they are used for additional storage (during the night?) I haven't been there for some years but can't imagine things are that different and I'm certain that the last time I used the Bakerloo Line there were northbound trains terminating at Queens Park. 2. Platform configuration. In the SIM there are island platforms at Kenton and North Wembley where in reality these are non island. 3. Track circuit at Stonebridge Park Depot. When the first train exited both road's track circuits showed as occupied. Is this correct? I had to use 'F2' to find out which road the train was on. 4. The first train to get to Willesden Junction was routed nonstop to Kensal Green Junction. However, I had to stop it so as to clear the track circuit before I could set the route to Kensal Green Junction could be set. Has this something to do with the yellow triangle? This is the subject of one topic item but referred to a different movement. Could someone explain in layman's terms how to set the route without having to stop the train please. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 06:49 #11675 | |
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barry106
14 posts |
I've recently discovered Wembley Suburban and had a go at running it. I've also had a quick scroll through the topics so apologise if my observations have already been raised. I didn't see any. 1. In the timetable with the Sim I couldn't find any Bakerloo Lone trains that terminate at Queens Park but lots that terminate at Willesden Junction. Not the service as I know it. The movements bit of the manual would seem to agree with me. I can see why this is as: The layout at Queens Park in the SIM, as far as I know, isn't correct. a. there should be 2 stabling lines to the west of the platforms which the terminating trains use to reverse and through trains run through to and from the north where there is a connection to the tracks used by the Euston/Watford services. b. There is also a shed to the east; I think it has 2 roads. I don't know their use but presume they are used for additional storage (during the night?) I haven't been there for some years but can't imagine things are that different and I'm certain that the last time I used the Bakerloo Line there were northbound trains terminating at Queens Park. 2. Platform configuration. In the SIM there are island platforms at Kenton and North Wembley where in reality these are non island. 3. Track circuit at Stonebridge Park Depot. When the first train exited both road's track circuits showed as occupied. Is this correct? I had to use 'F2' to find out which road the train was on. 4. The first train to get to Willesden Junction was routed nonstop to Kensal Green Junction. However, I had to stop it so as to clear the track circuit before I could set the route to Kensal Green Junction could be set. Has this something to do with the yellow triangle? This is the subject of one topic item but referred to a different movement. Could someone explain in layman's terms how to set the route without having to stop the train please. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 07:11 #11676 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Terminating trains at Queens Park remain on LUL infrastucture and under their control throughout the reversing movement, which is why they never appear on the sim (see this photo of the LUL side of things, linked from elsewhere in this forum. The full overlap into the Up platform at Willesden Junction won't swing towards Kensal Green - which means that, in hopefully simple terms, when you set the route normally to the platform starter on the Up, the overlap will lock the route towards Queens Park, preventing you from subsequently setting the route towards Kensal Green (until the train is at a stand at the signal and the overlap has timed out). A reduced overlap is provided which doesn't lock the route through the junction (set using the yellow triangle as an exit), and this will allow you to immediately set the route towards Kensal Green (although the signal in rear of the platform won't clear until the train is closely approaching, ensuring that the speed of the train is reduced to ensure that the shorter overlap is acceptable!) Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 07:46 #11677 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
... and I suspect the reason that the overlap wont swing to KG is that there is a set of trap points which would be within the overlap and require reversing. I assume there is a significant gradient here requiring the trap, and reversing it in the overlap would reduce its effectiveness somewhat. Ray Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 08:13 #11678 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
1: as others have said, all of that stuff is LUL, not Network Rail. The NR signaller only has to deal with those trains coming out on to the DC lines. 2: I'll check - there must be some reason I drew it that way. 3: Yes, the two roads are both on the same track circuit (the points are controlled by the depot, not the NR panel). That's why it's drawn like that. 4: There may be an overlap management issue here. I'll check with my sources. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 10:11 #11682 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
clive said:
In the old New Line Box the LU track circuits and equivalent of 36 & 38 signals weren't shown (if they existed at all). I never saw a train come out of Stonebridge Depot so I don't know what warning (if any!) the bobby received. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 15:50 #11685 | |
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Underwood
748 posts |
1. Looking at the LUL journey planner, most the Willesden ones show as running to Stonebridge Park. When I was in London in 2006/2007 I have seen services to Willesden Junction, been there to see the staff kicking people off and shutting the car doors separately as they do. Back then I didn't know they ran empty to the depot but learned that sometime after. The shed roads are used to turn back the Queens Park terminators Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 17:41 #11687 | |
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barry106
14 posts |
Thanks to all for your replies. Queens Park OK so I now understand that the Queens Park terminators are outside the control as presumably then are both the east and west sheds. 1. Does it not follow then that the interface between the LU control and the NR control is at the east end of the west shed and not through the LU platforms. 2. How does the NR control know if an LU train is occupying the track in the turnaround shed? 3. I noted the reply about the way it was drawn but didn’t understand the answer, sorry. 4. I bow to your knowledge that in this period LU trains terminated at Willesden Junction. I used the line regularly between 1957 and 1969 and occasionally since and never saw this. 5. I had thought about raising an issue concerning the LU train frequency north of Queens Park but presume the timetable compiler knows more about this than me. My recollection is that the basic service to Queens Park was/is every 2 mins. with every 3rd/4th train going on to either Stonebridge Park or Harrow & Wealdstone. Willesden Junction to Kensal Green Junction I'll give this a try next time I'm doing it, thanks. Stone bridge exit I'll await further info Island Platforms Any comment? Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 18:11 #11690 | |
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David Russon
50 posts |
Clive. Re platform configurations - the Quail Track Diagram Book 2005 edition shows Hatch End and Headstone Lane as also having non island platforms whereas the Sim shows island platforms. However as I have not visited the area for many , many years perhaps the platforms have been remodelled since the book was published. DavidR Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 18:34 #11691 | |
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greatkingrat
75 posts |
In the current timetable trains terminate at Stonebridge Park however that only happened in the last year or so. Previously trains terminated at Willesden Jn, ran empty to Stonebridge Park Depot and then reentered service at Stonebridge Park. This created a rather unusual asymmetric service where there were 12tph SP -> WJ but only 9tph WJ -> SP. The reason for this was there were no staff available at Stonebridge Park to empty the train.
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| Queens Park and others 23/09/2010 at 20:00 #11692 | |
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Underwood
748 posts |
greatkingrat said:The reason for this was there were no staff available at Stonebridge Park to empty the train.Ahh thats why, well im sure the driver could do it....would form a queue of services behind it though! :lol: Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 24/09/2010 at 10:37 #11694 | |
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Jan
906 posts 
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I've got a copy of the presumably current Bakerloo Line WTT (WTT 36 from 18th May 2008, thanks to the FoIA), and one of the changes listed is indeed "Northbound services terminating at Willesden Junction are extended in passenger service to Harlesden and Stonebridge Park, following the provision of detrainment staff at Stonebridge Park". Also, for anyone interested, here's an overview over current service frequencies: [img width=462px height=356px]http://home.arcor.de/jan_thorsten/bilder/Bakerloo%20Line%20Train%20Frequencies.png[/img] The basic off-peak pattern northbound at Queen's Park seems to be: qqwhqsqhqqwhqsqhqqwhsqh, with q = Queen's Park terminator w = Overground to Watford Junction h = Harrow & Wealdstone s = Stonebridge Park Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 24/09/2010 at 12:59 #11695 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
Yes, my timetable (needing testing and such), is based on the 2009 WTT for the London Overground services and 36 for the Bakerloo trains, it has them going to Stonebridge Park with passengers and then reversing in the depot.
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| Queens Park and others 24/09/2010 at 16:00 #11698 | |
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Underwood
748 posts |
Anyone interested in when the changeover happened, I noticed this on Wiki when looking it up about Willesden Bay platform: "Until May 2008 north-bound Bakerloo line trains which were to reverse at Stonebridge Park depot (two stations further north) ran empty from Willesden Junction although the southbound service began at Stonebridge Park. This imbalance was as there were no London Underground staff beyond Willesden Junction to oversee passenger detrainment, but this changed after London Underground took over the staffing of stations on the line, including Stonebridge Park, from Silverlink in November 2007" Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 29/09/2010 at 21:45 #11776 | |
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lnwrelectric
26 posts |
clive said:1: as others have said, all of that stuff is LUL, not Network Rail. The NR signaller only has to deal with those trains coming out on to the DC lines.1. There is also the 202 points locked condition on the work station that applies after a Bakerloo has left the platform at Queens Park until the train has arrived at WS 13. Now that makes for some interesting working and numerous delays in the real world.  2. Hatch End, Headstone Lane, Kenton & North Wembley are not planned to be island platforms in the short term. 3. There is an indication on the work station showing which road the next departure will come from the shed. The corresponding return indication gets little real use.  4. Whilst he full overlap on WS22 does not swing, the the delayed yellow on WS24 will step up to an unrestricted yellow once the route has been set from WS24 as the full overlap is now present. Normal warning arrangement conditions apply here. And now for two new ones,,,,,,........ :cool: 5. WS8 overlap does swing on the work station but the aspect is held until the NSD (negative shoe detector) detects the presence of a Bakerloo train, there is also an auto button for both routes. The cause of numerous delays. 6. WS37 overlap does not swing, the overlap must drop out before the route to the depot is available. The NSD is also required for aspect clearance. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 29/09/2010 at 21:59 #11777 | |
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lnwrelectric
26 posts |
Underwood said:Anyone interested in when the changeover happened, I noticed this on Wiki when looking it up about Willesden Bay platform:Initially no accomodation was provided at Stonebridge Park for the detrainment staff so the tip out was done at Willesden Junction but now Willesden Junction is a London Overground managed station and the previous accomodation was knocked down. So the money was found and a shack was provided on Stonebridge Park down platform for a couple of detrainment staff. The first Bakerloo to Stonebridge Park is an empty set conveying train operators from the north shed at Queens Park and the detrainment staff arrive about 0730 and finish about 2130 except for the last few trains when the station supervisor looks in. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 30/09/2010 at 12:28 #11785 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Okay, this is getting interesting. 1. I take it you mean 502? So you're saying that 502 are locked (in either position?), with timed release, when the two track circuits between BB32 and WS13 are occupied. That'll be fun, since the first one is used by trains reversing in the central sidings. Or is it only the second one, west of the catch points (BB18), or both but the first one only with BB17 reversed? 2. I have no idea why I've drawn things like that. Absolutely none of my sources have any of those four stations as islands. 3. I can see them on some photos and there's a note on a diagram. I presume they're just worked by a switch in the depot control tower? 4. This looks like a simple bug that needs fixing. 5.The negative shoe detector (at the end of track DZ, the overlap of WS12) is simulated. I'm not sure why you're referring to the overlap swinging, since the overlap ends before the points. My sources say "route controlled" rather than "aspect controlled", which I've taken to mean that the route can't be set until the detector triggers. I hadn't noticed the A button on WS8 - the control tables don't mention it! 6. My control tables say that WS37 routes B and C are controlled by the train describer, but there's no mention of a negative shoe detector at all. Are you saying that the route can't be set at all until the overlap drops out, even if the track is clear all the way to the depot entrance signal? And one for you in return: 7. Have you any idea why my plans show a negative shoe detector at the FN/FP boundary (the end of the overlap of WS15)? Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 30/09/2010 at 17:10 #11794 | |
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lnwrelectric
26 posts |
clive said:Okay, this is getting interesting.1. Yes, should have said 502 points, the points are held to ensure an overlap beyond WS13 until the bakerloo has come to a stand at the signal. I will recheck the conditions and post asap. 2. One of those things. 3. The tower sets the two sets of indications as required for arrivals and departures so you have some idea of the depots requirements as not all trains will enter the depot and occasionally a little shunting has been known. 4. OK. 5. I refered to the overlap but should have said the route can be set and is "aspect controlled" by the NSD, the auto button is available for all routes. 6. Quite right TD controlled "Ixxx or Sxxx" my memory is too good at the pre Suburban layout the NSD here was removed and I was typing from memory. 7. Mmmm...thats got me scratching my head so will check out next week and post. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 30/09/2010 at 18:03 #11799 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
Ref Item 2, could be because a quick look at the aerial pics gives the impression of an island platform, but is actually the platform between the suburban lines and the main lines.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Queens Park and others 02/10/2010 at 05:24 #11818 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
(Could you please drop me an email at clive<at>SimSig.co.uk? Thanks.) 5. My copy of the tables say the route is also controlled by the train describer. If that's just aspect control, does that mean a route can be set (or retained with the A button) but the signal doesn't clear until a description steps into the berth? If so, does it revert if you change the description? Or is this just a "at time of clearing" condition? Log in to reply |