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| China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 24/07/2011 at 07:55 #18246 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
At least 35 people have died and more than 200 are hurt after two high-speed trains crashed into each other in eastern China, state media reports. Two train coaches fell off a bridge after derailing close to Wenzhou in Zhejiang province. Chinese media report that one of the trains came to a halt after being struck by lightning and was then hit by the second train. Rescue workers are at the scene, near Shuangyu town in Wenzhou. It is not known how many people were on the trains at the time, but Xinhua news agency says each carriage can carry 100 people. Initial reports suggested one bullet train had derailed at about 2030 (1230 GMT) - the D3115 travelling from the provincial capital Hangzhou. But local television later said the first train had been forced to stop after losing power due to a lightning strike, and was then rear-ended by another train, the D301, causing two of its carriages to fall off an elevated section of track. TV pictures showed one carriage lying on its side under the bridge, and the other standing on its end leaning up against the bridge. There were reports that four carriages from the other train had also derailed, but it is not known if that led to further casualties. "D" trains are the first generation of bullet trains in China, with an average speed of just short of 100mph (160km/h). "The train suddenly shook violently, casting luggage all around," one survivor, Liu Hongtao, was quoted by Xinhua as saying. "Passengers cried for help but no crew responded." China is spending billions on constructing a high-speed rail network. Last month China inaugurated its Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail link. The 300 km/h (190mph) train halves the journey time to under five hours. But the project has come under fire for its high cost - the Beijing-Shanghai line cost 215bn yuan ($33bn; £21bn). It has also been blighted by power outages and other problems. China is planning to roll out high-speed lines across the country. The BBC's Martin Patience in Beijing says there are also fears corruption has compromised safety in the network's construction. Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 24/07/2011 at 13:58 #18259 | |
Fireman Pat
69 posts |
I've never been a fan of HS2 and this incident reinforces my belief that saving a few minutes between London/Birmingham on a service that will no doubt attract premium fares for the privilege is a waste of £32billion.or so. The money is much better spent IMO on upgrading existing infrastructure that is, sadly, falling apart. Can you imagine the hue and cry if such a similar disaster was to strike HS2?....and don't say it couldn't happen!! Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 24/07/2011 at 15:45 #18276 | |
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zerofire
21 posts |
A similar issue with HS2 is highly unlikely. Most of the high speed tracks are not elevated in the UK so the drop would be avoided. As for lightning strike that might be avoidable if proper grounding is done.
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| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 24/07/2011 at 15:52 #18277 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:A similar issue with HS2 is highly unlikely. Most of the high speed tracks are not elevated in the UK so the drop would be avoided. As for lightning strike that might be avoidable if proper grounding is done.I'm sorry but any high speed rear end collision is going to end in fatalities, even Grayrigg where the train slid down an embankment caused one death. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 25/07/2011 at 07:22 #18313 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
I think if you examine the relevant stats. you will find that railway safety in this country has improved significantly since Ladbroke Grove and latterly Grayrigg. I believe the fatality there was the last passenger to die on our railways (although sadly not the last rail worker by any means). You are quite correct in that on any transport system (or anything else made by man) there will be accidents, but the risk is a lot lower in the UK than many other countries, especially some in the Far East or the sub-Continent of India. It would be unusual to say the least for a lightning strike to cause a "wrong side" failure in the UK. Having said all that I am also anti HS2, because isolated HS lines like this are a waste of time and money. We need a network of such lines à la TGV in France (just 30 years old!!) to make it worthwhile. Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 25/07/2011 at 07:25 #18314 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:" said:A similar issue with HS2 is highly unlikely. Most of the high speed tracks are not elevated in the UK so the drop would be avoided. As for lightning strike that might be avoidable if proper grounding is done.I'm sorry but any high speed rear end collision is going to end in fatalities, even Grayrigg where the train slid down an embankment caused one death. Yes, which was incredible. A high speed derailment on a set of points, causing the train to go down an embankment including some carriages turning over only resulted in 1 death. A testament to railway safety. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sam Tugwell |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 25/07/2011 at 10:26 #18322 | |
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Fireman Pat
69 posts |
I don't believe it is a testament to railway safety at all. Perhaps a testament to the in built safety of the rolling stock, then yes. You only have to look at railways in a historic manner to determine causes of rail disasters and these are usually, but not always, caused by human error. the likes of Harrow & Wealdstone, Quintinshill etc are both good examples. I accept that railway standards in developing countries may not be a patch on the UK's networks, but their remains a high risk of similar accidents on our planned high speed routes. Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 25/07/2011 at 11:21 #18325 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Can we please quantify "high risk". I expect everyone reading the Forum is quite at happy being at home as it is perceived as a low risk activity, but the actuality is that you are at far more risk of fatality or serious injury just carrying out your normal day-to-day activities at home than you are on a UK train. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 25/07/2011 at 14:14 #18329 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
I am not sure how you are defining railway safety Postman Pat. It actually includes the human element, infrastructure and everything else. As the human element is driven out of the safety equation by technical advances, investment has to be in mitigation of what we all agree are the inevitable residual accidents which are very difficult to avoid completely. Thus if Grayrigg had happened in 1915 (Quintinshill) the stock would never have withstood the forces of the accident the way it did. I posted elsewhere on this forum at the time that the design team of the Mk III coaches should be awarded a medal.
Last edited: 25/07/2011 at 16:46 by pilotman Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 27/07/2011 at 03:51 #18411 | |
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Jsun
212 posts |
" said:I'm not sure how to categorize the workers the operation seemed rather careless for a rescue, coaches that fouled the trackes were simply flicked off the rails while people/bodies feel out only to be shaken like a soda can for another body(ies) to be shaken out. Put me in mind of an earthquake where crews simply bulldozed over the rubble bodies and all. Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 28/07/2011 at 05:32 #18505 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
"The system "failed to turn the green light into red", said An Lusheng, head of the Shanghai Railway Bureau." As I said previously, it would be very rare to see a wrong side failure on NR in similar circumstances. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14321060 Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 28/07/2011 at 14:45 #18529 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2080 posts |
I suppose the nearest comparison on the British Railway in recent years would probably be Clapham. I also think that some of the above posts paint an inaccurate picture of railway safety in the UK. For a train to come off the road at over 100mph, slide down an embankment and only result in one death is remarkable. If this had happened in the 1960s then there would have been many more fatalities. The Pendolino stock is clearly very crash resistant, far more so than anything used in China or India I would imagine. I would also be fairly confident in saying that I believe it to be unlikely that a similar Wrong Side Failure would occur on the railway here nowadays. There were significant procedures put into place after the Clapham crash which go a long way towards preventing this type of incident happening again here. Also worthy of note, two of the apparent "major railway crashes" of recent years have been misclassified by the press. The collisions at Ufron Nervett Level Crossing, and at Great Heck, were actually Road Traffic Accidents that tragically occurred on railway lines. If someone either deliberately in the case of Ufton Nervett, or carelessly in the case of Great Heck, causes a road vehicle to come to rest on a high speed railway line then there is very little the railway industry can do about it. The press however are reluctant to blame the real cause - ie motorists, and go on about all sorts of irrelevant and unconnected railway collisions instead. I remember watching BBC News after Ufton Nervett and observing that Christian Wolmar was having major difficulty in explaining that the First Great Western HST becoming derailed was as a result of a car driver and not the actions of the railway industry, and that whilst Level Crossings will always pose a risk, misuse of them by motorists and pedestrians accounts for nearly all incidents involving them. Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 28/07/2011 at 15:00 #18530 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts 
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In general, I agree with you, Stephen. However, there has been an incident in the last year where a train was shown a green light with a 350 tonne lump of train still visible (fortunately) and so there was no collision. There was another incident that I can't recall which I think resulted in a WSF but again no accident.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 28/07/2011 at 15:10 #18532 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
I think your post reinforces what I've already said Stephen. Interesting that you mention Ufton Nervet (or however it's spelt). After that NR starting assessing how many sets of facing points were in the critical distance from level crossings. Noone's perfect though. The LC accident at Moreton on Lugg, caused by a signaller putting back and opening crossing gates, was down lack of retrofitting by NR. Simple additions to the locking which would have saved a life. Ray Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 29/07/2011 at 07:39 #18594 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Here is Railway Gazette International's report on the incident. http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/signal-failure-suspected-in-wenzhou-crash.html Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 29/07/2011 at 08:29 #18597 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Seems a bit fishy to me that "unofficial reports suggest a right side failure, overidden by radio operation thereafter" (paraphrased). Given the location of this accident its fundamental causes may never be known. I don't think China has a Freedom of Information Act. Ray Log in to reply |
| Re: China: Dozens die as bullet trains collide 21/11/2011 at 17:26 #23438 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Fresh news article pretty much hot off the keyboard about this from IRJ. Wenzhou accident report blames ‘poor management' Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |