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| Re: Newark northgate. 11/08/2011 at 19:02 #19351 | |
GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
The same information is given out publicly in SimSig sim timetables well the authentic ones anyway.
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| Re: Newark northgate. 11/08/2011 at 19:33 #19352 | |
jc92
3687 posts |
usually out of date information. perhaps the source is more important than the information. it is technically network rails private information and intellectual property. timetables gained through legitimate means (out of date timetables bought online, current information gained with authorisation etc) are acceptable but through illegitimate means (accessing trust for less than proffesional use, accessing CCLDB or similar private channels) is not
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 11/08/2011 at 23:07 #19353 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Perhaps it would help if all users were acquainted with the Rules of the Forum and Code of Conduct. Section 11 of the Code of Conduct states: 11) Offering to send or requesting that others send you copies of paid-for software or commercial products, documents or information, or the discussion of any form of law breaking activities is not permitted. TRUST downloads are clearly commercial information. Whatever your personal views about passing information on, it is something which is specifically ruled out here (and we all agreed to abide by the Rules and Code of Conduct when we signed up). “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: onlydjw, ipswich |
| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 18:05 #19372 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
If that's the case postal then there should be no discussion on the forum about Working Timetables being made available. As Working Timetables are "Commercial" information and are all marked as "Private and not for publication". :whistle: "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: nezza, Trainmad091 |
| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 18:20 #19373 | |
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GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
and timetables where the data has been used from freight locate which in it self is commercial product theres a timetable for south humberside using this information.
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| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 20:29 #19375 | |
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jc92
3687 posts |
" said:If that's the case postal then there should be no discussion on the forum about Working Timetables being made available. As Working Timetables are "Commercial" information and are all marked as "Private and not for publication".depends how old they are. british rail/railtrack ones are ok as these companies have ceased to exist (similarly heritage railways can use BR or railtrack TRBs but not NR ones) not sure what the situation is on obsolete NR timetables however "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 20:44 #19377 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:That's not correct. Assuming that the copyright was held by the respective company as I can't see who else would hold the copyright . The copyright lasts until 70 years after the company stops existing. So in reality railtrack ones won't be available until 2072. So they are private and not for publication until at least that time. So you can't go selling / trading them.If that's the case postal then there should be no discussion on the forum about Working Timetables being made available. As Working Timetables are "Commercial" information and are all marked as "Private and not for publication".depends how old they are. british rail/railtrack ones are ok as these companies have ceased to exist (similarly heritage railways can use BR or railtrack TRBs but not NR ones) However personally I don't see the harm in distributing TRUST reports, if NR, any TOCs or FOCs had an issue most of the yahoo gen sites and internet forums would have been served with cease and desist orders long before now. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 21:01 #19378 | |
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jc92
3687 posts |
if theres no harm and no issue in distributing TRUST reports then why dont NR just make it public accessible for all to see? edit: who would bring up a case against you for breaking copyright of old timetables? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 12/08/2011 at 21:02 by jc92 Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 21:29 #19379 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
I'm just making the point in regards to the forum rules.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 12/08/2011 at 22:36 #19380 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
For the hard of reading, I wrote: "Whatever your personal views about passing information on, it is something which is specifically ruled out here (and we all agreed to abide by the Rules and Code of Conduct when we signed up)." If you don't like the Rules, then don't sign up or else take it up with the site admin. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 13/08/2011 at 12:59 #19383 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:For the hard of reading, I wrote:All I'm doing is pointing out that you can't turn round and tell us we can't give out TRUST reports, then allow people to talk about trading / buying / selling or using Working Time Tables. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: GoodbyeMrFish |
| Re: Newark northgate. 13/08/2011 at 13:51 #19388 | |
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GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
I bet that half the 2011 timetables on this site have used date from TRUST, but thats ok, Do you check to make sure that each timetable creator has not used any information from copyrighted sources? And postal im i find you rude and offensive. Some people might not have the education to be able to punctuate every single sentence or like me be dyslexic so the fact that you keep quoting certain forum rules, is actually quite offensive. Did you consider that? no. and now again in this thread. "for the hard of reading" whats that suppsoed to meen, you now accusing people of not being able to read as well. maybe this site should have a warning on connection stating that you need at least a GCSE in english to post here. I for one dont post that often for this reason. i know my spelling and punctuation sucks, but if its understandable which all posts in this thread are then that should be ok. your sarcasm offends people. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: headshot119, ipswich, Trainmad091 |
| Re: Newark northgate. 13/08/2011 at 18:39 #19396 | |
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birchy74
151 posts |
I dont think Postal was having a go at people that cant read properly just people that cant be bothered to read the terms and conditions and posts, i dont think he meant any offence
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| Re: Newark northgate. 13/08/2011 at 19:00 #19397 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Apologies to all for the ill-considered words in my last posting. Perhaps it would have been better phrased as "the hard of understanding". I certainly did not mean to cause any offence to people who make every effort to join in the Forum even if they deal with the written word in a different way to most of us.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 14/08/2011 at 07:52 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: headshot119 |
| Re: Newark northgate. 13/08/2011 at 20:30 #19400 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Assuming that the copyright was held by the respective company as I can't see who else would hold the copyright . The copyright lasts until 70 years after the company stops existing. So in reality railtrack ones won't be available until 2072. So they are private and not for publication until at least that time. So you can't go selling / trading them.The copyright on BR WTTs would be Crown Copyright, which is slightly different. It lasts for 125 years from date of creation, for unpublished material such as WTTs. Published material is copyright for 50 years from publication, so public timetables from 1948-1961 are now public domain and can be freely republished; but no BR WTTs will be public domain until 2067 at the earliest. However, there's nothing in copyright law to stop you trading in timetables - if there was, it would be illegal to sell a second-hand book or an autograph! Furthermore, there's also an argument that the information contained in a timetable would not itself be a copyrightable work, and that the copyright is held on the typography, which would mean that although you couldn't publish a facsimile timetable you would be free to turn it into a SimSig timetable. The "Private and not for publication" wording is largely a separate issue (other than for establishing the duration of Crown Copyright for BR timetables), but would only be binding on employees themselves. On the subject of TRBs: during the Railtrack days I worked on a preserved line which used Railtrack TRBs. We bought them from the printers, who were happy to sell them to third parties, and I assume Railtrack didn't mind either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 15/08/2011 at 10:01 #19421 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Copyright. Here we go. My partner teaches this stuff at LLM level so I think I can safely say that what I've picked up about the legal position is authoritative. Copyright is not the same as commercial confidentiality. But both can be enforced - including through the courts if push comes to shove. But confidentiality is more likely to be enforced by internal disciplinary processes - it's a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) than engaging m'learned friends to do the job. I'm not an expert but I would guess that such things as current TRUST output are commercially confidential and copyright is not involved at all. Copyright used to be the life of the author plus fifty years. It was raised to life plus seventy years a few years back. I think the reason given was something to do with authors whose copyrights had been infringed by the authorities of nazi Germany; I think I also heard it suggested that may have been the public face of a change made for other reasons. The details are neither here nor there. As far as I know, the author is the individual, not the employing corporation. It will therefore be extremely difficult to tell when copyright expires on such material as WTTs. In practice that's not a problem, as I'll explain below. I don't think Crown Copyright is relevant. BR material was not handled under Crown Copyright. Private & Not For Publication (hereinafter PNFP): I've heard it suggested that this was an expedient to avoid crushing the British Library under an avalanche of every notice the railway ever issued. (As a copyright library, the British Library is entitled to receive (and required to be sent) - free of charge - a copy of every book, pamphlet or other work published in the UK; there are other copyright libraries that are entitled to receive the same, but only if they ask for it. PNFP means the item has never been published in the legal sense of the term, therefore the BL doesn't need to find the several miles of shelf space per year that would be required.) Much of this material is (and for many years has been), as people have pointed out, traded openly without any objection from the originating bodies, such that I suspect an estoppel would arise if they sought to prevent it now. BUT I think it's rare to find current WTTs being traded thus and legal sanctions against selling copies of this year's WTT might be easier to enforce. In other words, with the possible exception of current WTTs, PNFP is not the sort of legal prohibition that is likely to attract legal sanction and (it seems) may safely be ignored. Publishing copies is an unknown grey area (but see below). I believe Network Rail has stated that, although copyright inheres, they have no interest in enforcing their rights in respect of historic operations information. (This, of course, is completely separate from issues that arise in such areas as non-disclosure agreements, by which Geoff inter alia is bound.) Therefore track & signalling plans, operating notice entries and timetable information may be published - but without any legal right to do so, it's completely dependent on NR's goodwill. (In practice, given what it would cost and the limited damages they would be likely to recover if NR did sue, this policy simply formalises commonsense.) In summary therefore (and given that Geoff may make whatever rules he likes for the good governance of his private site/forum): Current TRUST information is undoubtedly protected by commercial confidentiality. Quite apart from whatever consequences may follow for other individuals, the fact that Geoff's job depends on NR should be enough that we do nothing NR might find unacceptable. Current WTTs are probably not acceptable material to pass around via this site. In the absence of any word from Geoff to the contrary, we should steer clear. Historic WTTs, track & signalling plans, working notices etc (either the originals, copies, or the information contained therein) are probably allowable for distribution here - again subject to any specific authorisation or prohibition by Geoff. But most of this is reliant on the goodwill of NR and current policy could change at any time. Material originating other than in NR is copyright and copies should not be published here. Distribution of originals should be in a way permitted by law (in other words it's probably OK to pass the originals to each other, it certainly isn't OK to put up an image here or to distribute infringing copies). Final points. This information is given without liability. I've described the position to the best of my knowledge; if anyone has authoritative information to confirm or contradict anything I've said, it would be good to know. And whatever I've said about what ought to be OK or not, if Geoff says no that means no! Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 15/08/2011 at 10:07 #19422 | |
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jc92
3687 posts |
for everyones future reference etc might it be worth the mods moving this discussion to timetables or the real thing?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 15/08/2011 at 10:35 #19423 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
This topic has passed me by till now (partly I suspect as I was on holiday). The matter of WTTs and live TRUST information is perhaps a bit of a minefield so a bit of common sense probably should apply. Cutting and pasting TRUST reports is probably going a bit too far as is telling us the source of gen is TRUST but simply advising that such and such a train is expected to pass somewhere at sometime is probably OK. As regards WTTs themselves, as was established some months ago in a separate forum posting thread, Network Rail have accepted that East Coast Trains can make them available to the public under FOI. So although you can't actually get them direct from NR (or maybe you can if you ask but not under FOI as NR is not covered by it) the principal seems to have been established. On that basis I can't see any difficulty in discussing current WTTs on the forum. Clearly NR/TOC employees will need to consider their personal circumstances when posting/ discussing. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 15/08/2011 at 18:19 #19452 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
I appreciate the comments posted; generally, yes, if it's not current and most definitely not confidential (names, phone numbers, etc) then it would be reasonable to discuss and potentially offer. Just use common sense.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Newark northgate. 16/08/2011 at 10:37 #19472 | |
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GoodbyeMrFish
148 posts |
[video width=425 height=344 type=youtube]-_5ayDE92IE[/video]well lesson learned anyway, but a great day was anyway and thank you callum (ipswich) very good timetable reader, was always prepared except the crossover lol. Got loads of good footage too much in fact so the video will be a 2 parter here is the first part for those that are interest. also see the flying banana at peterborough but because of a failed grand central 180 on the fast line, the not so flying banana was routed slow line through peterborough station. part 2 is uploading now will update in due course And again thank you callum for showing me around. Part 2 is now up and running for those who are interested :) [video width=425 height=344 type=youtube]MoQMW-7bBeo[/video] Last edited: 17/08/2011 at 10:22 by GoodbyeMrFish Log in to reply |