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Keeping trains rolling

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > Keeping trains rolling

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Keeping trains rolling 24/08/2011 at 22:58 #20057
Jsun
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212 posts 		Being from the US I'd like the UK's take on trains. Is it acceptable to do certain things to keep trains rolling when a main aspect is unavailable. Passenger trains excluded obviously when a train reaches a station and the way will clear soon I usually keep them going via call-ons and shunts. Is this accepted practice?

What of talking freight trains by signals when the overlap is being held by a train at a junction I.E a train coming out of Merehead Quarry going UP is holding the overlap on the DOWN line to the quarry would a real signaller talk the train by to get him off the main or should I regulate him off to the side earlier.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 24/08/2011 at 23:01 #20058
jc92
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3690 posts 		not sure about using shunts to keep trains moving but as far as overlaps are concerned, its neccesary to wait for them to drop before signalling a train unless there's a box special instruction, or if absolute block is in operation and the warning arrangement is authorised at that box, and then only if both concerned trains are non passenger

edit: regards calling a train on when a train is departing a platform, this also isnt authorised, and also wont work at any box with huddersfield control. signalling non passenger on shunts should be acceptable dependant on local conditions and any special instructions
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 24/08/2011 at 23:04 by jc92
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 24/08/2011 at 23:37 #20061
postal
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5265 posts 		Json

If you can be bothered to plough through it all, the current Rule Books applicable to UK operations are all on-line at this link.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 24/08/2011 at 23:39 #20062
postal
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5265 posts 		" said:
regards calling a train on when a train is departing a platform, this also isnt authorised
Not sure if special regulations apply or it is a bug, but in Exeter v2.227 it is possible to set the route via the shunt signals from Goodrington CS into Paignton P2 while there is a train in platform and the starter is off.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 00:05 #20063
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts 		" said:
" said:
regards calling a train on when a train is departing a platform, this also isnt authorised
Not sure if special regulations apply or it is a bug, but in Exeter v2.227 it is possible to set the route via the shunt signals from Goodrington CS into Paignton P2 while there is a train in platform and the starter is off.
Just went and tested with Version 2.201 and got the same result.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 05:30 #20066
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts 		" said:
" said:
" said:
regards calling a train on when a train is departing a platform, this also isnt authorised
Not sure if special regulations apply or it is a bug, but in Exeter v2.227 it is possible to set the route via the shunt signals from Goodrington CS into Paignton P2 while there is a train in platform and the starter is off.
Just went and tested with Version 2.201 and got the same result.
As Jc92 said, it depends on whether the box has Huddersfield control or not, which is information I don't have.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 06:59 #20068
Late Turn
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699 posts 		TS1 says:
Quote:
4.11 Clearing a subsidiary or position-light
signal associated with a main signal
You must always use the main aspect when there is an associated
subsidiary or position-light signal, except when:
• shunting
• attaching or detaching
• the line is occupied and permissive working is authorised for that
line and the type of train concerned
• it is necessary during single line working or working by pilotman
• the main aspect is locked at danger, as shown in section 6.3 of
module T1B Movement of trains during failure of, or when
working on, signalling equipment.

So there's no problem bringing a second train in using a calling-on aspect if permissive working is authorised (at some locations, it's only authorised to allow attaching moves, which wouldn't cover you in this situation). However, from TS2:
Quote:
3.4.4.2 Not to signal both trains at the same time
You must not signal a second train into an occupied platform if you
have already cleared the signal for the first train to leave that
platform.

That provides the requirement to apply the end result of Huddersfield Control even where its not provided, but only applies to lines signalled under TCB regs, and I can't find anything equivalent in the AB regs (although permissive working will probably have been shifted onto SBSIs for the few remaining AB locations that it applies) or the GSIs. If you can get hold of a copy of the 'One Day in Severn' video, filmed in the 90s (?) at Severn Bridge Junction, there's one sequence that shows (if I remember correctly) a loco-hauled passenger train being signalled in on top of a simultaneously departing DMU (two boxes involved in that move), and I've done similar on the GCR (with both movements under my control - the second move was a shunt move following a departing DMU).

TS2 Reg 3.4.4.2 is interesting though - not sure how you're meant to apply that at Three Bridges P3 where the signal for the first train is an auto signal!
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 08:56 #20070
kbarber
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1743 posts 		I think current practice is basically a development of older methods of block working used with mechanical signalling.

Jc92: there is a superb overview here: http://www.signalbox.org/ go to "block system". This describes the absolute block system. As you will see, allowing a train towards a signal without an overlap was allowed (Regulation 5), but only where authorised. Usually there would be restrictions on the classes of train that could be signalled in this way. It was also common for a restriction relating to weather (clear weather only). Such authorities would be given in the signalbox special instructions. (There were also some standing authorisations in the Block Regulations - fog working and trains requiring to stop & work in the section come immediately to mind and I think there were others.)

Permissive block was a substantial variation on the Absolute Block system, used only where authorised (and usually only for specifically authorised classes of train). Unfortunately John doesn't cover it at all. It used the absolute system as a starting point, but when the section was occupied a second train could be offered, and the signalman to whom it was offered returned the bell signal 2-4-2, which had to be repeated back by the offering signalman (same procedure as for Regulation 5). Strangely, when the section wasn't occupied, a 1/4 mile clearing point was still required to accept a train if permissive working involved passenger trains - but again a restricted acceptance could be authorised specially.

Nowadays these practices are implemented by provision of calling on signals (for permissive working) and by provision or "warning" class routes (signal held at red until train is closely approaching, when it clears to single yellow, for reduced overlaps). Sometimes a warning route has a separate exit button, in which case the signaller may choose to use it in order to keep an alternative route free ahead of the signal. In that case the provision is obvious. Sometimes it has to be forced by swinging a set of points in the overlap; trial and error will find these cases. And sometimes it will be selected automatically if the overlap is occupied, stepping up to a normal overlap as soon as the requisite track circuits clear; in that case, you have no choice whatsoever in the matter. You shouldn't use subsidiary signals to get round restrictions caused by overlaps being occupied.

In real life, permissive working is shown in the Sectional Appendix and also in the box instructions; in SimSig the authorities are detailed in the manual. In general, if permissive working isn't authorised you shouldn't do it - any subsidiary signals that exist are for shunting purposes, not for keeping trains moving that are expected to pass through the control area.

Of course you are at liberty to do anything SimSig will let you, at the expense of the real-life experience of a UK signaller (with all the frustrations that things like overlaps impose). In real life, doing so will pretty quickly result in a visit from the District Inspector (or whatever they call them these days), Form 1 in hand, followed by a painful interview with the guv'nor. (No, that's not an idea for the features wish list...)

Hope this is useful.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 09:35 #20072
Late Turn
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699 posts 		Permissive working through an AB section remains a bit of a mystery to me - the basics such as accepting with 2-4-2 seem logical enough, but I'm not too clear on how it all copes with a busy section with units attaching/detaching - does the box at the advance end send TOS for each movement out of the section (surely necessary for a longer section on a goods line where there's a reliance upon counting them in and counting them out?), or is it sufficient over a short section to just send TOS when the last one leaves? Obviously, if you signalled three in from one end and waited for three to come out of the other end, you couldn't then guarantee the section was clear if you relied purely on the exchange of bell signals, as any of them could have detached or attached portions in various combinations. That's a discussion in itself!

The thing that does stand out over a permissive block section is that there's nothing to stop the chap at the advance end pulling off for a departure at the same time as the chap in rear is letting a second train in permissively, and I don't think there's ever been anything to say you can't accept a second one permissively (in AB-land) with the signal cleared for the first?
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 10:22 #20076
jc92
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3690 posts 		u can only accept a train under permissive regs when all trains in section have come to a halt, equally the 1970s greenbook (not sure about current permissive) says u cant accept a train with your home signal off for that section.

train out of section is given for every train that leaves section, and when the last train has left section, a single beat is given and the instrument pegged to normal.

i do find it difficult to understand how my signalling mananger ensured all trains were stationary when he had 7 trains in section between brancliffe and dinnington but there you go.

kbarber- regulation 5 is the warning arrangement..as i said

edit: just remembered one day in severn...yes ill call on that 8 coach train. uh oh the DMU isnt leaving..... perhaps that was a difference in regulations then, or else the rules are different for permissive block signalling
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 25/08/2011 at 10:28 by jc92
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 10:25 #20077
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts 		So in the absence of interlocking "Huddersfield" controls what we probably need is a penalty tripped for doing it. Might be one for Core Code as it'd be a bit of a nightmare to pick all the possibilities up and then code them by hand.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 10:36 #20078
jc92
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3690 posts 		ok ive now rechecked the regulations. the DISTANT signal for a section cannot be cleared if a second train is accepted, the home signal is permitted to be cleared, and a train released from section.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 10:45 #20079
Late Turn
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699 posts 		That sounds about right - you wouldn't want the distant signal 'off' in a permissive section occupied by more than one train (otherwise the second or subsequent train might be misled into thinking that the home signal is cleared for him and that there's nothing between him and the home, when it could well have been cleared for a train between the distant and the home). I'm sure that the numerous goods lines signalled permissively (with relatively long sections) wouldn't have functioned at all well if a second one couldn't be accepted until the first had come right through to the home signal and stopped, and then that first one couldn't be let out until the second one was at a stand behind it.

I couldn't see a problem with the actions of the chaps at Shrewsbury on the video. The Driver of the second one was entering the section knowing that he had to be prepared to stop short of any obstruction, which he did!
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 14:40 #20089
jc92
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3690 posts 		extracted from module TS3 track circuit block regulations for permissive working

3.4.4.2 Not to signal both trains at the same time
You must not signal a second train into an occupied platform if you
have already cleared the signal for the first train to leave that
platform.

so thats that clarified (short of SBSIs)

edit: this specifically applies to platform permissive working, not sure about goods line or passenger line permissive working
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 25/08/2011 at 14:40 by jc92
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 17:19 #20106
Late Turn
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699 posts 		That's the extract from TS2 quoted earlier? You're right though, that clarifies it for TCB (and there can't be many, if any, long permissive sections of the sort formerly found on goods lines). However, the supplementary question for permissive working in AB sections still stands.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 17:35 #20109
jc92
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3690 posts 		ill ask the guy who writes the rules
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 17:46 #20112
Late Turn
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699 posts 		I didn't think the RSSB was a one-man band . In the absence of anything in TS3 though, I can't see anything (except SBSIs) to prevent you doing it on a permissively worked platform in an AB area.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 17:53 #20115
jc92
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3690 posts 		well hes a senior trainer/region manager. theres nothing i think he doesnt know lol
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 25/08/2011 at 18:34 #20119
Late Turn
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699 posts 		It'll be interesting to see what he has to say then. There's always room for discussion though - I've never yet met anyone who knows it all!
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 26/08/2011 at 09:13 #20146
kbarber
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1743 posts 		" said:
However, the supplementary question for permissive working in AB sections still stands.

Where trains frequently attach & detach in section (it would usually happen where the permissive working is through a large station, I suspect) it was likely to be covered in the SBSIs. I worked with just such instructions at Kensington Olympia (OK, it was a VERY long time ago now ). Permissive Block proper was authorised on the middle roads only but the platform loops were signalled with subsidiary arms and a good deal of attaching/detaching went on in all 4 roads. As well as the usual bell signals there were special local codes for "shunting at advance end of section" and "shunting at rear end of section" (I don't recall the exact wording), together with one for "train & vehicles drawn back clear of section". (The block section was approximately from the footbridge to the north end of the platform, except for up trains arriving in the reversible down platform where it extended to the extreme south end of the platform!) The "Train & vehicles drawn back" did not signify that the section was clear, only that the shunt which had entered had now left; I think it was to facilitate the instruction that shunting was not permitted at both ends of the section simultaneously. Sometimes what entered as a shunt was in fact the attaching train engine. You then had to remember which way the train had originally entered, in order to decide whether you used the "...drawn back..." signal or just gave train out of section when the train departed. The SBSI's stated that when all the shunting was done the signalman at the advance end cleared the section with the normal 2-1 "when it can be seen that the section is clear throughout"! (The shunting instructions applied on all roads, both permissive & absolute.)

Which is one reason I long for a really good simulation of absolute block & mechanical signalling.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 26/08/2011 at 09:57 #20147
Late Turn
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699 posts 		Thanks for the detailed explanation - it sounds a thoroughly fascinating method of working! I had a suspicion that, in cases like that, the chap at the advance end might rely upon being able to see that the section's clear throughout - I can imagine that trying to keep track of what's in the section purely by bells and the block indicator would be virtually impossible.

I couldn't agree more that we could really do with a decent AB simulator. Whilst PC Rail and others certainly offer a simulation of the basics, that's really as far as it goes - I'd imagine any representation of somewhere like Kensington Olympia wouldn't come close to accurately simulating the complex method of working. As an outstanding simulator of TCB signalling, it's also unreasonable and unrealistic to expect Simsig to go down that route - despite the excellent attempt at representing AB on Worksop, I really don't think it's the right tool for a simulation concentrating mostly on AB. Keep an eye on your PMs, I'll send you something across re. thoughts on an AB simulator when I get a moment later today.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 26/08/2011 at 12:04 #20154
Jan
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906 posts 		I guess one of the problems with an AB simulator is that you ideally should be able to see the trains you are signalling. So not only do you have to implement a good signalling simulation, but a general 3D railway simulation as well.
Rail3D isn't perfect (bell codes e.g. are quite simplified, and the graphics aren't perfect either), but it's still fun to operate, and it gives a good impression how a 'perfect' AB simulation could look like.
If you want to try it for yourself, here's some more information:
Rail3D lever frames
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 26/08/2011 at 13:15 #20160
jc92
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3690 posts 		i see only one problem with a decent absolute block indicator, that is TCB requires you to set a route with very little rulebook knowledge, AB, ETB, PB, etc all require far more rulebook knowledge and skill to operate. the average user might not want to have to delve into a rule book just to run a train round in section (to me this isnt a difficult manouvre, but to someone whos never done it before it might be)

but im fully behind an AB simulator of any sort, short of the miniature im building lol
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 30/08/2011 at 11:04 #20375
kbarber
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1743 posts 		" said:
Thanks for the detailed explanation - it sounds a thoroughly fascinating method of working! I had a suspicion that, in cases like that, the chap at the advance end might rely upon being able to see that the section's clear throughout - I can imagine that trying to keep track of what's in the section purely by bells and the block indicator would be virtually impossible.

On the contrary, I'd have expected that to be somewhat exceptional. Normally, where PB was being worked on passenger or platform lines (the old designations), there would be "tell-tale" instruments with counters that had to be incremented as trains entered and left the section; these should always agree with the number of trains in section. On goods lines the train register should be the record of how many trains there are in the section. (The same was even true of the Midland Railway's old "Telegraph Bells" method of signalling, which was an even more permissive variant of permissive block!) But to be honest a Kensington-like situation would always be something of an exception to any norms, with most such things covered by SBSIs.
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Re: Keeping trains rolling 30/08/2011 at 11:08 #20376
kbarber
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1743 posts 		" said:
I guess one of the problems with an AB simulator is that you ideally should be able to see the trains you are signalling. So not only do you have to implement a good signalling simulation, but a general 3D railway simulation as well.

There will always be compromises with a sim so I wasn't assuming the need to see out of the window; in that respect I think PC Rail is adequate, it's just the rest of the SimSig-like package I'd like to see.

" said:
Rail3D isn't perfect (bell codes e.g. are quite simplified, and the graphics aren't perfect either), but it's still fun to operate, and it gives a good impression how a 'perfect' AB simulation could look like.
If you want to try it for yourself, here's some more information:
Rail3D lever frames

Interesting. I'll have a closer look when I've time. But without proper bell codes (& instruments to go with them) it will never be possible to simulate the likes of Kensington, nor indeed of the Midland between Hendon & Finchley Road (which is another place I have fond memories of).
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