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| "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 28/11/2011 at 13:19 #23900 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
As part of building up a tutorial, I'm trying to set up a call-on which will display the above message. I can join trains successfully but haven't seen the message appear yet. Has it got something to do with which direction the trains are facing when they join? I was hoping to see it appear while joining 3R67 and 2C67 at Royston 1, but no success so far. Not even sure whether it represents some kind of error message or just a pat on the back. :) Thanks for any help. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 28/11/2011 at 13:20 #23901 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
royston doesnt have huddersfield control as far as i know so it will allow you to set the route (although the call on wont clear under the circumstances)
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 28/11/2011 at 13:44 #23906 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks jc92. You said Quote: royston doesnt have huddersfield control as far as i know so it will allow you to set the routeI found that replacing K980 (Up exit signal from Royston 1) was the only way to prevent the "Route set from the exit signal - call-on not allowed" message from appearing when I tried to call-on 2C67. This would seem to imply some form of Huddersfield control. What I would like to do is invoke the other call-on message (from the rear) instead. Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 13:45 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 28/11/2011 at 13:46 #23907 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Max, The 'call-on set from signal in rear' message should appear whenever you try to set a route out of an occupied platform with a calling-on route (i.e. for a second train) already set into it from the other end. I've just tried it (not on the version of Royston released over the weekend) by setting a route from K977 to K983 with platform 1 occupied, then attempting to set a route from K983 to 103. You might also have noticed the 'route set from the exit signal - call-on not allowed', which occurs when you try to set a calling-on route into a platform with the route already set out of the far end. To see this, try setting a route from K983 to 103 with platform 1 occupied, then attempt to set a route from K977 to K983. As jc92 suggests, both messages are connected with 'Huddersfield Control', which prevents a train being called-on into an occupied platform at the same time at the signal's cleared at the far end of the platform - to avoid the Driver 'reading through' to the cleared exit signal and failing to observe the train in between! It's got nothing to do with the direction the trains are facing - generally the interlocking doesn't 'know' which way a train is facing at any given moment, though it does know which direction a train arrived from and will prevent a route being set into the platform from the opposite direction for a specified period of time ("subroute locked in opposite direction" message, I think?) Tom Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 28/11/2011 at 14:00 #23910 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Tom - sounds right to me. Will try your advice after I've had some sleep. Max Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 14:01 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 00:01 #23958 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks everyone, finally worked it out. Scenario 1 3R67 is stationary at Royston 1. You decide to set a route Up line from 980 to 976 (off the LH edge of the pic) ahead of time to speed the joined train's departure. Then you try calling-on 2C67 by setting a route from 984 to 980. This results in the error message "Route set from the exit signal - call-on not allowed" (i.e., call-on is not allowed because you have previously set a route from the exit signal). Huddersfield control in action.  Scenario 2 3R67 is stationary at Royston 1 and 2C67 is being called-on, moving at 9mph. While this is happening you try to set an exit route between 980 and 976 to save time. This time SimSig warns you "Call-on set from signal in rear" (i.e., a call-on route is already set, so you can't set a signal ahead of it to green as the driver of the train being called-on might mistake it for a through green signal). Huddersfield again.  Note that, once the call-on is complete (2C67 has entered the platform and stopped), it is permissible to set an exit route to save time, even though joining of the trains is not completed.  Scenario 3 3R67 has been delayed and arrives at 977 while 2C67 is entering the station. Although each train will come to a halt in its half share of the platform (3R67 occupying the left half and 2C67 the right half), the only approach route available to be set for 3R67 is between 977 and 983, so attempting to do so will invoke the message "Subroute locked in opposite direction"  However, once 2C67 has stopped moving, there is no impediment to setting the route required.  Hope this helps you all. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 00:05 #23959 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
rather than leaving it in the forum try adding it to the wiki as well maybe? that probably sounds really negative but thanks for the time effort etc, i just think it would make it more accessable "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 00:07 #23960 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks jc92, I am working on that. It will be part of a tutorial I hope will find its place in the Wiki. Just needed some help with it to get it right.
Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 00:21 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 01:12 #23963 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:so you can't set a signal ahead of it to green as the driver of the train being called-on might mistake it for a through green signalSecond reason for the control was Newton Abbot 1994. Because the signalling allowed a call on to be set with the starter off (i.e. no huddersfield control) this was regularly used to "speed things up" as you term it. Every day that a particular train approached Newton Abbot the platform was occupied and the signaller gave the train a call-on signal to "speed things up." On just about every occasion the train that was occupying the platform has departed by the time the following train had entered the platform. So every day the following train had a clear run into the platform despite being shown a call on aspect. The drivers knew this and expected the platform to be clear because that's what happened every day. until one day, when the class 158 ended up imbedded in the back of the Inter City 125. Huddersfield control would have prevented this accident because a) the signaller would not bother using the call on if it prevents him getting the train in the platform away on time b) drivers would not have got used to entering vacant platforms with a call on signal. That's "Speeding things up" for you! Quote: Note that, once the call-on is complete (2C67 has entered the platform and stopped), it is permissible to set an exit route to save time, even though joining of the trains is not completed. If you're putting this into wiki I would suggest you say "Note that, once the call-on route has been cancelled" also the signalling system has no ability to tell if the joining of trains is complete. Quote: However, once 2C67 has stopped moving, there is no impediment to setting the route requiredTechnicality but the signalling system cannot tell if the train has stopped moving. It's simply a timer that releases the subroute once the platform track circuit has been occupied for a pre-determined amount of time. FF Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 01:34 #23966 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Firefly said: Quote: If you look at the 3rd pic in my series you will notice that 984's stem reverts to grey, not white, indicating that (in SimSig, at any rate) as soon as two trains commence joining, the call-on route is automatically cancelled, so there's no need for the player to cancel it manually. Maybe it's worth pointing out that cancellation is automatic, when this eventually reaches the Wiki. I agree it would seem implausible for a signalling system to be able to tell whether joining is complete, indicating another compromise SimSig has to make with the real world. So to be completely safe, maybe the core code should be changed so that even joining has to be complete before an exit route can be set. What do others think? Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 01:41 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 01:42 #23968 | |
dmaze
88 posts |
" said:If you look at the 3rd pic in my series you will notice that 984's stem reverts to grey, not white, indicating that (in SimSig, at any rate) as soon as two trains commence joining, the call-on route is automatically cancelled, so there's no need for the player to cancel it manually. Maybe it's worth mentioning that cancellation is automatic.Newer sims have an option for TORR (train operated route release, if memory serves) that can be set at startup. If you don't set this then signals won't be automatically cleared as trains pass...at which point "right-click to cancel route" becomes your best friend. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 02:03 #23969 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:I agree it would seem implausible for a signalling system to be able to tell whether joining is complete, indicating another compromise SimSig has to make with the real world. So to be completely safe, maybe the core code should be changed so that even joining has to be complete before an exit route can be set. What do others think?Sorry, you mis-understand. When I'm talking about "signalling systems" I AM referring to the real world. In the real world the signalling system does not know or care if train joining is complete. There is no compromise on the part of SimSig here, Huddersfield control is reproduced correctly. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 02:08 #23970 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:If you look at the 3rd pic in my series you will notice that 984's stem reverts to grey, not white, indicating that (in SimSig, at any rate) as soon as two trains commence joiningNooooo, the stem reverts to grey because the train has passed the signal and it has TORR'd. It has nothing to do with trains joining. Quote: the call-on route is automatically cancelled, so there's no need for the player to cancel it manually. It doesn't matter if the cancellation is automatic (TORR) or if it's been done manually, the principle still stands that the exit signal cannot be set until the call-on has been cancelled. Quote: Maybe it's worth pointing out that cancellation is automatic, when this eventually reaches the WikiOnly on simulations fitted with TORR. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 02:42 #23972 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
So you're saying there may be some sims lacking TORR? I haven't come across one yet, in fact, haven't even had to bother to look for it. If TORR was optional, why on earth would anyone not want to enable it? Anyway, in real life TORR would surely never be an option (for any particular area). It would either be fitted or not fitted - there would be no option to not use it. That such a compromise might exist in a SimSig sim for that area would to me detract from its claims to authenticity. Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 05:36 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 08:33 #23979 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
TORR used to be provided by default in every Simsig, as far as I'm aware. It's only relatively recently that the option has appeared to disable it on certain sims, to match the real thing (hence improving authenticity). Presumably the decision was made (correctly, in my opinion) to provide an option to keep it enabled, as otherwise larger or busier sims would be too difficult either for a beginner trying to get used to a workstation or an experienced player trying to run the whole lot single-handedly! No, it might not be authentic to provide TORR where it's not provided in real life, but I think it's a sensible (and optional!) compromise. Just in support of Firefly's comments on the various error messages - remember that you can also use a calling-on route to put a second train in a platform even if the two aren't joining (though in reality, this has to be authorised in the Sectional Appendix for a particular platform). There's nothing to be gained from ensuring that the joining move has started (even if the interlocking could!) - the most important thing is that the second train is in the platform and unlikely to 'read through' or otherwise anticipate an empty platform from a distance! Tom Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 09:40 #23982 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:So you're saying there may be some sims lacking TORR? I haven't come across one yet, in fact, haven't even had to bother to look for it.Central Scotland Sim Absolute Block areas have no TORR and it's not an option. The Panel boxes do have it as a global option, though in reality Cowlairs and Grangemouth Jn have TORR while Polmont and Greenhill do not. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 11:07 #23994 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:join one of my hosts of sheffield 1983/84. at that point the box didnt have TORR installed (although as far as im aware it does now). removing TORR not only improves realism as each route has to be pulled behind the train, but it increases the challenge of a game and keeps players interested and focussed. " said: im fairly sure that if the said TORRless sims didnt have the option to enable it, you would have already created a post asking for all sims to have TORR in the effort of improving playability. if you feel it detracts from realism, just dont enable it "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 11:08 by jc92 Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 12:12 #24000 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I'm glad that someone who has been with SimSig for a much longer time and knows all the sims has provided a definitive answer on which sims haven't got TORR at all and on which it's optional. It certainly surprised me that TORR wasn't something one could take for granted on all sims. In that case, I have to agree with Firefly that manually clearing a call-on route needs to be kept in mind if TORR is not available, no matter what two trains on the same platform are doing! Quote: removing TORR not only improves realism as each route has to be pulled behind the train, but it increases the challenge of a game and keeps players interested and focussed.Who said each route had to be pulled behind the train? I would have thought the guiding principle would have been to set the route for the next train. On a main line with a lot of through trains, this might mean being happy to leave a through route set, a kind of poor man's automatic signalling. I wonder if railroad company manuals authorized this in the pre-TORR days? Quote: im fairly sure that if the said TORRless sims didnt have the option to enable it, you would have already created a post asking for all sims to have TORR in the effort of improving playability. if you feel it detracts from realism, just dont enable itDon't be too hasty to put words into my mouth. It can take more time and effort to keep resetting a route than to leave it alone, as I said above. I'm quite happy to rise to the challenge of playing without TORR, knowing this is the way it used to be done. Likewise, one day when I'll be simming trains using CBTC, ETCS (ERTMS) or, more likely, CTCS, I'll look back and wonder how I ever put up with ARS and TORR. Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 12:16 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 12:23 #24002 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:you have to pull the route behind a train or it wont clear again. thats the whole point of TORR, it automatically detects a train has cleared the block section and releases the signal. without it you have to pull the route one the train has passed, then set it again, confirming to the interlocking that you wish another train to enter the section. they wont act as automatics (several exceptions applying, for instance on exeter) youll just end up with a big queue, hence TORR is important in busy areas where signallers dont have time to keep pulling routes and resetting them. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 12:56 #24007 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Appreciate your reply, but you might have lost me in the jargon. I think I'll have to try one of these TORR-less sims and experience the difference myself. That should be interesting. Then I'll return to re-read what you said. Thanks anyway. (Added) Just had my first look at Central Scotland. Wow! What a little beauty. Something for everyone. Great work guys. Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 13:08 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 12:58 #24008 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
apologies. put basically, you have to cancel the route behind a train in order to reset the route for the next train, otherwise the route will stay locked at red
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 13:19 #24011 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Anyway, in real life TORR would surely never be an option (for any particular area). It would either be fitted or not fitted - there would be no option to not use it.Not the case I'm afraid. Many relay installations from the 60s,70s & 80s had a switch in the relay room which would enable or disabled TORR. I can't remember why it was required, however I've definitely seen TORR on/off switches in relay rooms before now. I've searched back to the oldest standard that I can find (1994) Click Here and it states that a method of inhibiting TORR for an interlocking area is not required. I suspect if I found an older standard it probably used to be a requirement. Quote: Who said each route had to be pulled behind the train? I would have thought the guiding principle would have been to set the route for the next train. On a main line with a lot of through trains, this might mean being happy to leave a through route set, a kind of poor man's automatic signalling. I wonder if railroad company manuals authorized this in the pre-TORR days?If you want to clear the signal again you must cancel the route because the signal would have "disengaged" with the passage of a train. Signallers will always pull up behind trains for 3 reasons. 1) It's a pain trying to set a route and then realising you've left another route which prevents you doing so. 2) In some cases (Absolute block areas) the failure to restore the route to normal (cancel it) will prevent block controls from being normalised. 3) And the main reason is that when you stand back from the panel you can easily where you've set routes and therefore where your train is going to stop. If you've left your route's set and have Red aspects because they've been used by a train (disengaged) the only way of knowing where your train will stop will be to look for the signal indications. When you're sat back in your chair drinking tea, it's far easier to look for a long string of route lights. Hopefully the attached images will support my point   FF Last edited: 29/11/2011 at 14:50 by Firefly Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 13:26 #24012 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Who said each route had to be pulled behind the train? I would have thought the guiding principle would have been to set the route for the next train. On a main line with a lot of through trains, this might mean being happy to leave a through route set, a kind of poor man's automatic signalling. I wonder if railroad company manuals authorized this in the pre-TORR days?If you're leaving the signals cleared behind a train (possible with semaphores), the signalman may as well go home - he's not protecting trains at all if he does that. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 17:02 #24034 | |
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indian_railways_fan
72 posts |
" said:Anyway, in real life TORR would surely never be an option (for any particular area). It would either be fitted or not fitted - there would be no option to not use it. That such a compromise might exist in a SimSig sim for that area would to me detract from its claims to authenticity.It seems you are contradicting yourself on your stand on various features of Simsig.Sometimes you say that Simsig should be an exact representation of what goes on in the real thing and some times you want additional facilities,aids and simplification to help you learn and run the sims more easily.It has been explained to you several times now that Simsig tries to simulate the real thing as closely as possible keeping in mind the limitations of its being a PC based simulation and if the real thing is difficult than Simsig should also be equally difficult.In that process,some options may be created to entertain different categories of players.For example,I would regard the option to turn on/off the TORR feature only an extension of the scenarios that Simsig offers at the start of the game.Of course,in real life you cannot select scenarios at will but these are still provided for the convenience of the players and is not an indication of any deviation from reality.I think I can safely say that veteran players like it more difficult and take it as a challenge rather than look around for aids to make the sim easier. Simsig is not an office based program which needs to be altered/modified/simplified to make it easier to operate and run.It should also be remembered that Simsig is not only about signalling but also the tracks and the trains and the conditions in the field and adhering to the rules of signalling,hence the need to recreate the various failures and situations. Rather than being a programming challenge,Simsig is all about recreating the conditions in the actual signal panels and boxes. Khalid. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Call-on set from signal in rear" message 29/11/2011 at 18:26 #24045 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:
TORR is Train Operated Route Release. I think I'm right in saying it was first provided at London Bridge powerbox (early 1970s - I've an idea it might've been 1974 but I'm sure someone will correct me). Like most features it was part of a line of development from absolute block & mechanical signalling. Although there were any number of devices ("replacers" or "disengagers" - I'm sure there's a difference but not certain what it was), they were never that reliable and it became the norm (in the UK at least) to have every signal returned to danger behind a train by returning its lever to normal. Of course everything in those days was done manually. As control areas were small, it wasn't impossible to manage. (As an example, if you look at the North London Line, there were individual signalboxes at Gospel Oak, Junction Road, Upper Holloway, Harringay Park and South Tottenham In years past there were several more in that distance too: Highgate Road, Crouch Hill & St Annes Road come to mind, although they'd long gone by the time I knew it.) Early power boxes were miniature lever frames; the earliest still worked absolute block, with automatic sections between them starting to appear by the 1920s. It was still pretty much axiomatic that you put back every lever after the train had passed and workloads still allowed it - just about: Borough Market Junction needed 2 signalmen to work just 30 levers, and the train recorder had to be a fully-qualified signalman to allow even the briefest of toilet breaks! The earliest panel boxes followed the same principle. The idea of a row of white lights showing routes that had been set was devised as a reminder that a route remained set even though a train had passed (the position of a switch on a full OCS console wasn't always readily visible. That was even more the case with NX working, where one entrance switch/button could apply to any route from that signal. TORR was developed for London Bridge because it is such a busy area (it took over Borough Market, among others, for instance); it wasn't purely altruism on management's part - removing the need to pull up behind a train allowed each signalman to manage a larger area and thus reduced the number of staff required. But it was expensive to provide in a relay interlocking, so it was reserved for the busiest boxes. With the advent of Solid State Interlocking, TORR was easy and cheap and so became standard; older relay interlockings remain as they were. (And there are some places - I suspect Kings Cross is one - where some of the remote interlockings have been replaced with SSIs, so I suspect there's a complete mix of TORR and non-TORR signals, perhaps even within one signalman's control area!) Keith Log in to reply |