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| RETB Single line working 30/12/2012 at 15:17 #39868 | |
simmybear
58 posts |
Possibly a very obvious question. I was whiling away a few hours watching a Glasgow QS to Mallaig cab ride. It must have occurred before on there but i didnt notice it earlier. When the train stopped at Locheilside Outward Bound - which is effectively a "halt" in old money the end of platform sign instructed the driver to obtain a token before proceeding, given that this is already a single line, and a location where trains do not start from or terminate at, my question is: Why would the token not be for the whole length between passing loops, or up to a siding that had access to the running line? it just seems odd to apply for a token at a point where the train already occupied a single line with no opportunity to pass? Thanks Simmybear Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 30/12/2012 at 15:46 #39870 | |
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37423
7 posts |
The reason for the stop board was for the former paper mill at Corpach which could allow the passenger heading to Mallaig to be given the short section token to Outward Bound thus then allowing the freight behind to get permission to leave the yard and head to Corpach rather than have to wait for the passenger train to get all the way to Glenfinnan. Dave Log in to reply The following user said thank you: simmybear |
| RETB Single line working 30/12/2012 at 15:55 #39872 | |
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simmybear
58 posts |
Thanks that would make perfect sense cheers Simmybear Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 30/12/2012 at 19:24 #39875 | |
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Underwood
748 posts |
Can you still get a long section on that line, where you in effect own two tokens for two blocks (I believe there's a name for it). I don't know if it only applies to certain sections or certain lines?
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| RETB Single line working 30/12/2012 at 20:20 #39876 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
Yes, Fort William Junction and Glenfinnan are Token Exchange Points (TEP) whilst Locheil OB is an Intermediate Token Exchange Point (TEP-i) so trains can be issued with long section tokens from TEP to TEP allowing the train to continue without obtaining a token at the TEP-i.
Planotransitophobic! Last edited: 30/12/2012 at 20:21 by sloppyjag Reason: i before e except after c or Lochs! Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 07/02/2013 at 21:33 #41294 | |
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davidbird
12 posts |
" said:Yes, Fort William Junction and Glenfinnan are Token Exchange Points (TEP) whilst Locheil OB is an Intermediate Token Exchange Point (TEP-i) so trains can be issued with long section tokens from TEP to TEP allowing the train to continue without obtaining a token at the TEP-i. As is Arisaig, can get a Mallaig - Glenfinnan token. Looks like disruption may be coming to that section, a lorryload of fresh rail appeared below my house today... Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 12:53 #41308 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
on the subject of RETB, can anyone clarify if stopping at a TEP is compulsory, or with a short enough train, can a driver creep along, while releasing one token and receiving another with out physically stopping?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 13:31 #41309 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
The TEP signage is essentially a Stop Board so would suggest the train should physically stop moving. Would the rules (even local rules) allow a driver to "creep past" a stop board?
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 16:29 #41315 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
" said:The TEP signage is essentially a Stop Board so would suggest the train should physically stop moving. Would the rules (even local rules) allow a driver to "creep past" a stop board?true. however does said driver have to stop at a stop board at a TEP-I when he has a long token? a similar principle applies in this case - he has the token and has met the criteria of the stop board so may pass. the only reason i ask is i seem to recall a documentary on the jacobite which features picking up/dropping off a token whilst still in motion. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 16:32 #41316 | |
DriverCurran
688 posts |
" said:The TEP signage is essentially a Stop Board so would suggest the train should physically stop moving. Would the rules (even local rules) allow a driver to "creep past" a stop board?A driver 'could' do this IF he wanted to become familiar with the local on call driver manager, followed by the pleasure of providing a sample to an authorised collector, followed by a nice enforced time off the track, all of which are part of being involved in a category A spad!!!! Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 17:15 #41317 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
" said:" said:is it a SPAD if the driver has the token in his possession though? by Creep past, i dont mean sneak past the stop board, i mean creep through the loops at low speed whilst getting/giving a token. the board is never passed without authorityThe TEP signage is essentially a Stop Board so would suggest the train should physically stop moving. Would the rules (even local rules) allow a driver to "creep past" a stop board?A driver 'could' do this IF he wanted to become familiar with the local on call driver manager, followed by the pleasure of providing a sample to an authorised collector, followed by a nice enforced time off the track, all of which are part of being involved in a category A spad!!!! "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 17:29 #41318 | |
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DriverCurran
688 posts |
If he creeps past a board without stopping at the board saying STOP and obtain token, has he complied with the instructions on said board, if he has then no spad, however I was always under the impression that in this scenerio the instructions have NOT been complied with and therefore the aforementioned spad has taken place. When I go back to work next week I shall see what the general feeling is with various driver managers.  Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 17:37 #41319 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
To quote Regulation 1 for ETT, which I would imagine is also said in very similar wording in the RETB rules (seeing as they're ETT by radio!): "The signalling of trains by this system does not in any way dispense with the use of fixed or hand signals, or detonators, whenever or wherever such signals or detonators may be necessary to protect obstructions on the line." However, having said that, your comment about long section working is interesting... Edit: Ah, clearly someone in the rules office thought this through (GKRT0054 8.1.1): "Stop Boards/Signals shall be provided to indicate the commencement and end of each token section. Boards shall contain the place name and the wording 'Stop - Obtain Token and Permission to Proceed'. At stop boards where long section tokens are applicable an additional yellow sign worded 'Drivers in Possession of Long Section Token May Proceed' shall be provided." Last edited: 08/02/2013 at 17:43 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 18:29 #41321 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
I don't know anything at all about this particular location, or the general rules about whether a train on the national network has to stop at a stop board if the driver has already complied with the instruction. There are at least two locations on my railway where trains routinely pass stop boards without stopping though; one is at a manually-operated level crossing where a 'proceed' handsignal from the crossing takes precedent over the stop board, and one controls entry into a yard but is passed if the person in charge of the yard gave permission before the movement commenced. I think both of them are the generic 'STOP and await instructions.' Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 19:16 #41327 | |
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davidbird
12 posts |
I'll ask!
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| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 23:15 #41339 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
RSSB Rulebook Module S1 said:
*The underlining is mine. I'd agree with DriverCurran on this one, if you haven't stopped you've not complied with the rules. However I can think of four stop boards of the top of my head which are "odd". Two are located on the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch and have "STOP, Drivers of heavy freight trains pin down wagon brakes before proceeding". Passenger trains certainly never stop at either of these. Another one on Blaenau Ffestiniog is the boards which protect Tal-Y-Cafn Crossing, which is controlled by a crossing keeper which gives a green flag as authority to proceed. Trains tend to slow but don't always stop. Another is a stop board at Chester with the wording "STOP, Phone Chester PSB for movements towards Middle Yard". Now if your not going into middle yard do you need to stop? "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 08/02/2013 at 23:44 #41340 | |
Splodge
716 posts |
The Stop board at Bare Lane on the Up and Down Heysham was marked 'obtain train staff to proceed' - i.e. if heading for Heysham you needed the token and keys to unlock the ground frame at Morecambe. However I'm fairly sure that a lot of the DRS trains slowed to swap the token without actually coming to a stand (wheras the passenger trains to which the board didn't apply to would always stop at the station!).
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 00:30 #41341 | |
postal
5264 posts |
" said:on the subject of RETB, can anyone clarify if stopping at a TEP is compulsory, or with a short enough train, can a driver creep along, while releasing one token and receiving another with out physically stopping?This is the question that has generated the debate. If I read it correctly, Joe has never suggested that a train should pass a Stop board without the due authority. The question posed is whether a train short enough to pass the release point for the previous section and then obtain the token for the next section while moving at slow speed through the loop or whatever before reaching the Stop board is then permitted to pass the Stop board without physically coming to a halt? I'm not sure where all of the debate about SPAD's and the like has come from. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 11:56 #41347 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
I suspect it may be more of a technicality than anything. The primary issue is to comply with the instructions. I know of a few instances where stop boards are passed with the relevant permission, but without coming to a complete stand.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hooverman |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 13:42 #41357 | |
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davidbird
12 posts |
From the rulebook "Section 3 Electric Token Block 3.1 You must always stop your train when you need to obtain, deliver or exchange a token." That clears it up, don't you think? Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 13:50 #41358 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:From the rulebookWhat module of the rule book is that from ? "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 16:57 #41362 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
Electric token block isn't RETB, although I'd guess that the TOCs' driving policies will require trains to be at a stand before electronic tokens are exchanged. Personally, I wouldn't get too excited if a train passed a stop board without stopping if the relevant instructions have been complied with, although again the driver managers might see it differently.
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| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 18:53 #41368 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
I can confirm that the Jacobite stops at Locheil OB for token exchange. Given the amount of operations and co-operation with the signaller needed for an RETB token exchange, I don't think that you could do it while moving through a loop. You would be relying upon the signaller responses being prompt. I'm not but token exchange might even be linked to the train being stationary. Bill Log in to reply |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 19:41 #41371 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:" said:GERT8000-TW6 Iss 2From the rulebookWhat module of the rule book is that from ? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: davidbird |
| RETB Single line working 09/02/2013 at 20:22 #41373 | |
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davidbird
12 posts |
" said:" said:" said:GERT8000-TW6 Iss 2From the rulebookWhat module of the rule book is that from ? Thanks, you beat me to it. Yes, ETB is not the same as RETB, but I can't find anything specific to RETB. Am I just not looking in the right place? Log in to reply |