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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 07/02/2013 at 22:08 #41295 | |
Lordmwa
148 posts |
Evening all I have had an idea for a few weeks that is now basically fully formed and wanted to see wether or not it is worth me doing: Site: A website running mediawiki software. Every timetable (with writers permission) to be available as a series of every 10 minute snapshots Idea: Anybody can go along to the list of files for a particular sim/s and timetable and download what they want Potential uses: Dont want to start at the beginning but want to make sure no trains are missed? Want to run a Chain from a particular time? Want to skip the rush or or just play the rush hour? Etc, etc The standard: Every snapshot will be made playing a game with no failures or delay (this can then be added by the player if they wish once the game is downloaded) There will be a minimum % score as close to 100% as possible (possibly 97%) If anyone has any questions please let me know. (Better name for the site might be useful too) I accept that this idea can be vetoed by Geoff if he so wishes.  Please vote in the poll Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 00:12 #41297 | |
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John
884 posts |
Good idea. Sometimes it's nice to get straight into the thick of it without having to endure the wee small hours and still have all trains present. Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 01:22 #41298 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
Certainly not a bad idea, although it'll be a lot of work for someone of course. I'm not sure it needs to be a website in its own right though. The download area here already has an (admittedly underused) area marked for saved sims. Why not polish that up a little bit and keep it all in-house, as it were?
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 09:31 #41303 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
This would involve over 100 files per TT, there is no way the download system on this site could deal with that in a nice way
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 11:25 #41305 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Even more if you go for "perfect running", "delayed trains", "failures galore", etc!
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 12:51 #41307 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
I like the general idea, but i Think 10 min intervals is excessive. maybe more along the lines of hourly or half hourly? another concern: in timetables where the appearance of one train affects others, the simplest being train 1 does not run if train 2 runs, if you make a save when train 1 has run, you would need to make an additional save when train 1 hasnt run, otherwise train 2 will never run. and add to that as well any timetables that have days of the week rules and effectively for the purposes of this site, you would need to do 5 sets of saves. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 13:35 #41310 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
A better idea is maybe to do 'seed' timetables, so take the 15/10/2009 ones and produce hourly 'seeded' versions, works nicely on the newest sims where you can parachute a train in at a signal.
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 13:44 #41311 | |
DonRiver
166 posts |
" said:I like the general idea, but i Think 10 min intervals is excessive. maybe more along the lines of hourly or half hourly? Hourly sounds better. Or even just a random selection of times through the day. If users save when there's a momentary calm, a random selection of saves would offer many different times and rule permutations. I really don't think it would be necessary to offer a comprehensive set of every possible timetable rule variation! If someone really wants a particular train to run, it would be much simpler to edit the timetable to force it to run. (named for the one in Tasmania, not in Russia) Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 18:57 #41322 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
If you are running the sim to make these then having every 10 minute auto snapshots is produced by the sim, They dont all have to be uploaded!
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 20:29 #41328 | |
dmaze
88 posts |
" said:A better idea is maybe to do 'seed' timetables, so take the 15/10/2009 ones and produce hourly 'seeded' versions, works nicely on the newest sims where you can parachute a train in at a signal.Hmm...could you teach the core engine to do this on its own? Totally ignore train dynamics and assume the timetable is correct, but step through the timetable a minute at a time simulating entries, exits, splits, joins, conditional entry, rules, etc. Then when you got up to the requested time, you'd know the previous/next location of every train, and could seed the sim accordingly. Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 20:38 #41329 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:" said:Sounds like ARS to me!A better idea is maybe to do 'seed' timetables, so take the 15/10/2009 ones and produce hourly 'seeded' versions, works nicely on the newest sims where you can parachute a train in at a signal.Hmm...could you teach the core engine to do this on its own? Totally ignore train dynamics and assume the timetable is correct, but step through the timetable a minute at a time simulating entries, exits, splits, joins, conditional entry, rules, etc. Then when you got up to the requested time, you'd know the previous/next location of every train, and could seed the sim accordingly. Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 21:25 #41330 | |
58050
2659 posts |
Can't say that I agree with this concept in any shape or form. Timetables I write are complex enough without having to add more work to them because they get split into 10 minute snapshots. As jc92 says there are a myriad of rules governing whether trains run in a timetable or not, so if you start a timetable at a pre-determined time how do you know whether certain trains will run if the timetable has been started several hours after midnight. I won't be giving permission for any of my timetables to be broken up like that & besides if you play through a timetable & auto save it every 10 or 15 minutes you are basically creating the same sort of thing on your own computer withour having a separate file susyem with it already on. From a timetable writers perspective part of the fun is to play the timetable from start to finish & also learn about the sim & the area you control as you go through it. This idea just isn't for me. Others may dis-agree with my comments, but thats my opinion for what its worth.
Last edited: 09/02/2013 at 11:46 by 58050 Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 21:35 #41331 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
I think you may have slightly misunderstood although your comments are perfectly valid! There would be no onus at all on TT creators to do this themselves (unless they wanted to of course!) I compleatly agree that many people will want to play a TT from start to finish and this is certainly not designed to take away from that or stop people doing it, merely to provide an alternative for those who dont Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 22:42 #41333 | |
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John
884 posts |
For clarity, and to see if my understanding is correct: A player willing to contribute to this 'project' would start a sim from midnight and take snapshots periodically through to the completion of the timetable. The snapshots would then be uploaded to a designated area to enable players to start a sim from whatever time they wish with the area fully populated with trains. Is that correct? Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 22:47 #41334 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
Effectively although im not looking to see if people want to contribute, just to see if people would use it - if i get it up and running then people will be welcome to help!
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 08/02/2013 at 22:51 #41335 | |
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John
884 posts |
I'd use it and would gladly contribute if it goes ahead.
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 01:28 #41342 | |
GeoffM
6377 posts |
Whatever you do with your saved games is up to you really. But since my name was mentioned... I'm not entirely sure I see the point. Yes, we have an underused saved games area. Perhaps the first question ought to be why is it underused? If you don't answer that question then perhaps your idea will fizzle out and die. If we can answer that question then maybe we can improve on what is already here. There's no restriction on the downloads area having hierarchies of folders, ie a folder for each sim, then a folder underneath for each timetable, then the snapshots saved in there. Having the user navigate to another site to get saved sims seems a bit backward. Have you established how the authors of the timetables embedded in the saved games will be credited, and/or their permission obtained to host their timetable on another site? Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but I think there are other issues you need to work through first. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Josie, Temple Meads |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 09:36 #41345 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
Some very good qustions and i hope i can answer them! 1)I believe the current downloads area is underused for this sort of thing a) because nobody has bothered to create the stuff and then upload it b) because it is not especially intuitive and is a little complicated 2)Authors of timetables will be credited in a couple of ways - firstly they can have two levels of agreement to be on this site, either just the saves or if they are willing the timetable can be on there as well. If they want the timetable only to be on this site then i will just provide a link back. In terms of credit i envision each page to clearly state at the top who authored the timetable along with other key information about it. I also plan on having a category of page for each author therefore if you are on a timetable page simply go to the bottom, click on the authors name and you will instantly be able to see all the other timetables this person has created. 3) I also plan to use the same category idea for sim, era and exact timetable so you can find, for example, other Kings cross timetables, other 2000's timetables or other chainable ones for say 1977. I believe this cross referencing and simple style that i have planned will make it easy and intuitive to use. I will have a go at setting up a little demo setup without any files just to show people how it might look and work Edit: http://medbase.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Kings_Cross_1_July_1977 That shows quickly how the cross linking would work and the rough style of page i was thinking of, There will probably be a quick reference side bar with a picture like you see in most Wiki articles. The timetable download can have either one or both of those options. Last edited: 09/02/2013 at 10:21 by Lordmwa Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 12:29 #41349 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts 
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Perhaps it may be worth getting one of the standard TTs that are packaged with one sim, and hosting a trial on the standard SimSig site to see how much it is used. Perhaps another possible reason for lack of use of the SimSig Saved Games Downloads area may be the lack of knowledge of most users that it even exists - for instance I have been using SimSig for a very long time, and until I read GeoffM's post three minutes ago I did not know that it existed. Another issue worth considering is that this idea has become probably less relevant with the more recent simulations. With earlier sims you sometimes had to run the timetable for a couple of hours before you had enough trains in there to make the sim interesting enough to keep your attention, however the newer ones have the facility to seed trains almost anywhere (although in some timetables they are seeded in some badly chosen locations) so the latest default timetables have enough in them to keep your attention from the start. In the older sims I used to save a game the first time I ran them about an hour in so that I could always restart from that point and still have something to do, with the newer ones I don't bother. If you do go through with the idea then it would probably be better used if it were kept as part of the general SimSig site rather than a standalone that people have to go and search for. I see the demonstration link posted above shows that a wiki format is to be used - if that is the case then why not simply include the whole project as a separate section of the normal SimSig Wiki? Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 12:54 #41353 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Simsig wiki doesn't use the standard media wiki software that is so simple to use and powerful, however I would be happy to give that a go at let to start with.
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| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 13:23 #41355 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts
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I haven't a clue. I know editing the manual for North Wales Coast so that it was readable took me a long time, but I have had no luck with quickly doing anything with any Wiki system at all. I get the impression that if you know the code used by the system you are using intimately then it can be quite quick, but if you do not then it is a pain, whatever the system. Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 17:11 #41363 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
I don't really have any objections but I will comment on your points to provoke discussion rather than cast opinion... " said: 1)I believe the current downloads area is underused for this sort of thingHow would an off-site reference solve that? First you need to get people to visit your site. I guess I could put a link in the Links section, but what about the next person who has a good idea, and the next person... " said: a) because nobody has bothered to create the stuff and then upload itAgain, how would an off-site resource solve that? " said: b) because it is not especially intuitive and is a little complicatedSubjective. Why do you find it complicated and unintuitive? " said: Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Simsig wiki doesn't use the standard media wiki software that is so simple to use and powerful, however I would be happy to give that a go at let to start with.No, it uses the standard DokuWiki software that is so simple to use and powerful. The point here is - as Stephen says - it's what you know. Both achieve the same result in different ways. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 17:50 #41365 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:To be honest, it really is quite roundabout. Each file is a trawl through 4 pages - the folder holding it (which can be confusing with sims - is a sim in "Simulations" or "Simulations (Registered Users)"? Why are KX and Trent separated into the latter?), the file page itself, the "agree to the license" (which is possibly the most annoying part - it's just two extra clicks), and then you get dumped to another file page. Admittedly there is a direct link to download the file from the folder listing, but that's the opposite end of the screen, and I honestly only just realised it exists. Also, there's at least half a page's worth of preamble at the top of each folder listing - for example, I get the "Main Repository > User Contributed" icon and writing, the "SimSig::File Repository" icon, writing and RSS feed, the "Timetable" title and RSS feed. How many individual lines of writing do I need to tell me I'm in User Contributed > Timetables?! The information for each file is also takes up a huge amount of room - especially as I'm going to end up on a specific page with all that information again! The rating feature could definitely go - most files have none at all, and the few that do have one are almost always 5 stars. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Temple Meads |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 18:37 #41366 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
" said:To be honest, it really is quite roundabout. Each file is a trawl through 4 pages - the folder holding it (which can be confusing with sims - is a sim in "Simulations" or "Simulations (Registered Users)"? Why are KX and Trent separated into the latter?), the file page itself, the "agree to the license" (which is possibly the most annoying part - it's just two extra clicks), and then you get dumped to another file page. Admittedly there is a direct link to download the file from the folder listing, but that's the opposite end of the screen, and I honestly only just realised it exists.Thanks, that's helpful. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Concept - simsiggames.co.uk 09/02/2013 at 21:09 #41374 | |
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Lordmwa
148 posts |
What danny said is pretty much my feelings too. There is also the accepting of the terms and contitions every time you donwload a file - could this be limited or just addded to the user account creation? I dont see any reason not to work through this site however everything in the file uploads has to be approved which is just making slightly un-necessary work for the admins. An offsite resource can be more flexible however as you say it also has its disadvantages. Part of the idea behind this is to try and find some more use for a dedicated server that me and some friends currently rent. I am glad this has provoked plenty of discussion! Log in to reply |