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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 17:21 #42022 | |
John
884 posts |
In real life, is it an acceptable method of protecting a crossing? I realise that this practise is not what the facility was designed for, but is it considered a complete no no? If the only alternative is a protracted wait for the crossing user, said user may elect not to wait, resulting in a possible near-miss or fatality. Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 17:46 #42024 | |
postal
5264 posts |
John All discussed at some length in 2011 in this thread. However, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: John |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 18:02 #42025 | |
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John
884 posts |
Much obliged, John.
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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 21:27 #42030 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
John, at Victoria virtually all of our Emergency Replacement buttons on Auto signals cannot be relied upon, so they are only used in an emergency. I believe S&T were going to provide a list of those which *could* be relied upon, but I haven't seen it yet.
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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 21:32 #42034 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
In Bristol Panel the ERS that we could rely on had the red indicator shown in the signal head marking on the panel (the same as a controlled signal). Unreliable ones just had a small red indicator next to the switch. Until the Henbury line was doubled I don't think we had any reliable ERS switches. All of the ones on the Henbury line were reliable ones though. I remember from my days at Little Mill Jn (my first box) that the Sick & Tired adjusted the circuitry on an ERS to protect Ponthir Crossing, so it's certainly permitted to use an ERS to protect an occupation/accommodation crossing. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: John |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 22:24 #42039 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
Any replacement switch which is in an SSI Interlocking can be relied upon - auto signals are effectively controlled in SSI anyway as the controls are all done within the central interlocking and sent out via the datalinks (a little more complicated but that is essentially what happens), rather than locally on RRI areas where generally only the track circuit indications get sent back to the box. I know of at least one place where the Signalmen key an auto back to danger via the Replacement Switch in order to protect level crossings when in use. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: John |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 04/03/2013 at 22:45 #42043 | |
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John
884 posts |
Kev / Stephen The situation that led to me starting this thread was as follows: A phone-call was received from Lingfield Occupational Crossing requesting permission to cross. As I had already pulled off for a train to depart from East Grinstead and did not want to replace the starter signal in front of the train, I choose to operate the ERS on OD34. If you were the signaller in this situation, would you be happy to use this method, or would you tell the user to wait for the train to pass? Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 15:37 #42062 | |
wain77
81 posts |
I'm not a signaller, but I would've thought it would be better to tell the user to wait, instead of a driver having the signal drop on him and having to slam his brakes on! Somebody in a slow moving vehicle is probably already at a standstill while they call you, so they can probably afford to stand there for a bit longer! Also, purely from a 'playing SimSig' point of view, you get penalty points from the train receiving an ACOA, whereas a crossing user being asked to wait doesn't incur any points at all (I believe). Sam Wainwright Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 15:54 #42063 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
You certainly wouldn't cause a change of aspect just for a general request to cross, or even risk delaying a train to allow such a request. Signalmen would just wait for the trains to pass then authorise once they are clear. If the crossing user declared an emergency, you would obviously replace any signal that would prevent a train going over the crossing irrespective of where the trains were, but this is outside the remit of SimSig players. Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 15:55 #42064 | |
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DanC
53 posts |
What about the use of ERS with something like a signal lamp failure? E.g. the preceeding signal cannot display a green aspect so you use the ERS to force an approach aspect on the preceding signal and clear as the train passes it? Would that be something that could be permissable?
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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 16:24 #42065 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
Definitely. As an S&T Technician I have on several occasions advised Signalmen to do such things to get round "black" signals.
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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 16:42 #42067 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
Is a signal failure an emergency?
Last edited: 05/03/2013 at 18:17 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 18:07 #42072 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
Not generally no.
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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 18:10 #42074 | |
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DanC
53 posts |
" said:John, at Victoria virtually all of our Emergency Replacement buttons on Auto signals cannot be relied upon, so they are only used in an emergency. I believe S&T were going to provide a list of those which *could* be relied upon, but I haven't seen it yet.Out of interest (And ignorance) what do you mean by "They cannot be relied upon?" Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 18:12 #42075 | |
jc92
3685 posts 
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" said:" said:potentially the signal could revert to a proceed aspect of its own accord even with the switch operated, these switches are literally to put a signal back in an emergency.John, at Victoria virtually all of our Emergency Replacement buttons on Auto signals cannot be relied upon, so they are only used in an emergency. I believe S&T were going to provide a list of those which *could* be relied upon, but I haven't seen it yet.Out of interest (And ignorance) what do you mean by "They cannot be relied upon?" "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DanC |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 18:27 #42077 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
I agree. The ESR is purely there to replace the signal to red if there is an emergency (obstruction etc) ahead of it, requiring the stopping of trains. On another note: I thought that if an aspect failed, the signal would change to caution or a stop aspect. In any event, if the any aspect was out, the rules and regulations fully cover that event. Last edited: 05/03/2013 at 18:28 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 19:04 #42078 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:I agree. The ESR is purely there to replace the signal to red if there is an emergency (obstruction etc) ahead of it, requiring the stopping of trains.If a signal cannot display a particular aspect, the interlocking will cause signal in rear to display a red aspect, with appropriate aspects behind that one. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 19:09 #42079 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:I agree. The ESR is purely there to replace the signal to red if there is an emergency (obstruction etc) ahead of it, requiring the stopping of trains.Some older relay areas allowed signals to show a single yellow if the next signal was black. More recently, I believe Manchester South has some sort of degradation mode where signals will show a more restrictive aspect if it cannot display the desired aspect. But in general, a failed lamp will result in the signal staying black rather than changing automatically to a different aspect - partly probably to prevent the Christmas tree effect of that and preceding signals while trying to find a suitable aspect. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 19:29 #42080 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:In terms of the electrical "gubbins", what's different between a reliable and an unreliable ERS?" said:potentially the signal could revert to a proceed aspect of its own accord even with the switch operated, these switches are literally to put a signal back in an emergency.John, at Victoria virtually all of our Emergency Replacement buttons on Auto signals cannot be relied upon, so they are only used in an emergency. I believe S&T were going to provide a list of those which *could* be relied upon, but I haven't seen it yet.Out of interest (And ignorance) what do you mean by "They cannot be relied upon?" Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 20:46 #42083 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:In terms of the electrical "gubbins", what's different between a reliable and an unreliable ERS?Confirmation of the control being applied probably. Indication of such would require additional wires from the signal to the interlocking, and extra data from the interlocking to the signalbox. Since in SSI the control is inside the interlocking, which itself is usually inside the signalbox - and even if it weren't, it's a serial data link anyway - there is virtually no cost in ERS-enabling every automatic signal. In IECCs at least, an "E" next to an auto signal denotes emergency replacement that canNOT be relied on; an "R" means it can. I've seen "R" buttons on panels too. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 20:59 #42084 | |
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jc92
3685 posts
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" said:does SimSig replicate this standard? ive seen E, but never R in a sim. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 21:13 #42085 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Saltley 5R (Up Redditch Branch) has an R button - of course, I don't think anyone's ever worked out why that signal, being a repeater, has one!
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| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 21:49 #42088 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:Saltley 5R (Up Redditch Branch) has an R button - of course, I don't think anyone's ever worked out why that signal, being a repeater, has one!I thought it had been decided it was a hangover from when pilotman working could be introduced? I can also think of at least three other boxes which have replacement switches for repeaters. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 05/03/2013 at 21:54 by headshot119 Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 22:25 #42090 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:Maybe - I, sadly, don't remember the exact details of every thread on the Simsig forum!Saltley 5R (Up Redditch Branch) has an R button - of course, I don't think anyone's ever worked out why that signal, being a repeater, has one!I thought it had been decided it was a hangover from when pilotman working could be introduced? I can also think of at least three other boxes which have replacement switches for repeaters. Log in to reply |
| Using emergency replacement buttons to protect crossings 05/03/2013 at 23:18 #42094 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:" said:It's in the current code but I don't think a released sim has used it yet.does SimSig replicate this standard? ive seen E, but never R in a sim. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |