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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 06:12 #46491 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
I see a train waiting for a route to be set, so I set a route for it. But does it depart? No. It just sits there. When I check it out on the Train List I'm greeted with "Timetable rule (1A23 must not depart from [current location] until 10 minutes after [same train] arrives at {same location]). Now that stuffs everything up. Why can't these rules be included in its timetable displayed in the Show Timetable window that everyone reads, so we can all see them ahead of time, instead of having them sprung on us at the last moment? Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 06:17 #46492 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
You can see in the timetable, though, that the train is booked for (e.g.) 12 minutes dwell time. As a signaller you just have to be aware that the train might always need at least 10 minutes of that time for its station duties. The train description might help warn you - a parcels train is much more likely to have this type of rule, foreexample. Apart from that, it's something that you learn. Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 06:47 #46493 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
The ones that have caught me out in the past are the ones that must wait for connections out of another train - which isn't so obvious from the dwell time or type of train. In reality, you'd probably have a phone call from the station (or guard) to tell you that it'll be waiting for passengers off a late runner - in the absence of this, I agree that it might be helpful to show the presence of a timetable rule in the pop-up window. This sort of thing is more likely to happen at a larger station with TRTS than a smaller station without, adding some weight to the argument against pulling off before TRTS is received. Perhaps the sim drivers and station staff could be encouraged to phone to advise you that their dwell time will be extended (just as they do for a delay) if they see the platform starter 'off'when they arrive? Tom Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 06:54 #46494 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
But that's just like real life, set the road, sit back and wait and wait and wait. Ring the platform, "what's going on with xxxx?". "Oh were just waiting for a xxxx"! Great, thanks for the advance warning! Now we've screwed the up train up as well!
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 06:58 #46496 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
I wouldn't say they are 'unfair' I would say they add to the realism, for example... Set the route for 1A26 across the junction! Sit back and wait, poised ready to route the Up across the junction as soon as the down has cleared. And wait And wait And ring the platform "Oi! Why hasn't the down train left yet???" "Oh we're just holding it for a connection/driver/next cycle of the moon!" "Great now we've stopped the Up train as well, thanks for the heads up!" "Oh, we thought you'd guess what we we're doing!!" Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 07:15 #46499 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for your responses so far. The problem is that I have no way of knowing whether there's a TT rule for any given train unless I check it in the sim timetable, I guess. Which means that I would then have to check the timetable for each and every train to see where these special timetable rules might occur, which is out of the question. Is it not unreasonable to ask for any TT rules to be included in the timetable? Or am I going to have to read the TT in detail ahead of playing each sim and make a list of these rules in advance?
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 07:38 #46500 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
It's only UNFAIR to you because you do not know how to run the sim! Something you have to learn by practise. If the TD shows you a significant dwell time then F2 may alert you of a rule. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Last edited: 05/07/2013 at 07:45 by BarryM Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 08:06 #46502 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
Go back to the days when Parcels, Newspaper and Mail/TPO trains still ran and you'll find a lot with long layovers at stations, especially at night. During the day they had to be pathed properly between fast express services due to sometimes having a 75 mph maximum speed. I agree with Noel it adds realism to SimSig. Just a quick glance at a train's TT would give you a clue as well.
Last edited: 05/07/2013 at 08:07 by moonraker Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 08:10 #46504 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
these rules are present in my timetables for all parcels/postal/mail/newspaper trains, mainly due to the fact that the station working book will always dictate RM contract trains MUST be allowed their full time allowance at any station stop, and quite often will need it! that said, the stations these rules apply to all have TRTS, and as such i would have no sympathy for someone pulling off early. as barry says, F2 does show if any rules are applying to a train, so you could always check it before pulling off. to throw my own opinion in, rules for me are an under the skin device to make trains behave as they should, and "lifting the bonnet" would slightly spoil it for me, becuase in my head, a train wouldnt be waiting for a connection, or for someone to load mail, it would be following a logic rule. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 08:36 #46509 | |
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john havenhand
58 posts |
end of the day Just abandon rule
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 10:10 #46514 | |
northroad
872 posts |
" said:It's only UNFAIR to you because you do not know how to run the sim! Something you have to learn by practise. If the TD shows you a significant dwell time then F2 may alert you of a rule.To be fair to Max he does not actually say which Sim he is talking about and how many times he has played the particular timetable he is describing. If, as you seem to suspect Barry he is new to both, then it could seem a bit unfair for the first few times. One has got realise, if for example, I was a signaller turning up for my first duty at a box I have no previous experience at, then I would rightly expect a little bit of supervision during the initial period of being there. Over a period of time you would then become more proficient with the timetable (apart from it's day to day change notices) and then know more about the station dwell times etc. and be ready for what might happen. I know the first time I played an early timetable for Kings Cross that some of the Class 4's stopped at Finsbury Park for a crew change and found it a bit of a nuisance....but he ho this is a railway and as we all know everything does not run 100 percent. Keep playing the same Sim and timetable is probably the best answer and you might even get to 99 percent and as you rightly say Barry practise makes perfect......although we all know that's not true. Geoff Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bfcmik |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 13:30 #46528 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
On this occasion I was playing Westbury, all the way through, for the first time. The Show Timetable window, probably the most useful and most easily accessed window, does not hesitate to let us know when a train will join another on terminating, so we can plan for an added delay while waiting for its partner to arrive, if necessary putting the first train of the join to arrive somewhere out of the way. We expect to be given such information ahead of time. However, what threw me (in addition to the example in my opening post) was a rule suddenly appearing in the Train List to the effect that train AAAA cannot depart Westbury until 5 minutes after train BBBB arrives at Westbury. (You guessed it - train BBBB happened to be miles away, stuck behind another train that had broken down.) Nothing to do with joining the two, but probably to enable passengers who want to change trains at Westbury to do so without missing a connection. A sensible and realistic rule, to be sure, but why no advance notice and why not in the Show Timetable window? Crazy. Had I known in advance, I might have been able to re-route BBBB so passengers would not miss their connection. I don't believe this type of information isn't in the same TT that real signallers use, right alongside similar info about which trains join, divide, etc. To put it another way, our Show Timetable window is blind to more than one degree of separation. If its font were reduced to the same size as that of the Train List (hint, hint), there would be plenty of room to include added rule info affecting non-related trains, so that the TT for AAAA would mention BBBB in comments, or underneath Westbury Arr/Dep, and vice versa for BBBB. Which brings me to another point. As much as I would prefer not to use the Train List at all, being a cheat sheet, I am forced to use it to signal the driver, and now to discover the existence of well-hidden TT rules that suddenly surface at the most inconvenient of times. This is another argument for moving them off the Train List onto the Show Timetable window. (Added) BarryM wrote Quote: If the TD shows you a significant dwell timeDid you mean TT (Show Timetable), not TD? I agree that that could be a tipoff to an underlying rule, but then again it need not be and is really contingent on that particular train only. The dwell time might be for driver relief, change drivers, etc. However, if the TT writer's original intention was that train AAAA should dwell for some time in a loop to allow train BBBB to pass, this would all come to nought if one or the other arrive early/late. At this stage I don't think I'll rush to look at the Train List as soon as I notice a slightly longer dwell time, as a dwell time set out on a timetable is a static quantity, not contingent on another train. If it were not for TT rules, it would be quite easy to make do with specifying dwell times on the TT and we'd all be happy. Interestingly, in my original post in this thread the train in question could not depart for a fixed time after the same train had arrived at the same location. Now, wouldn't it have been easier to specify this as a dwell time in the timetable, rather than resorting to a TT rule that's hidden from the player until the train arrives? Last edited: 05/07/2013 at 13:47 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 14:05 #46529 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:Interestingly, in my original post in this thread the train in question could not depart for a fixed time after the same train had arrived at the same location. Now, wouldn't it have been easier to specify this as a dwell time in the timetable, rather than resorting to a TT rule that's hidden from the player until the train arrives?Older (pre-Loader) sims only have minimum dwell times specified at stations, and longer dwell times cannot be enforced in the WTT. This requires use of the rule to ensure the train waits for the specified time when running late, typically this is with Postal/parcels etc which have longer times for station duties (ie loading/unloading) than your average passenger train. The new Loader times have the facility within the TT editor to specify bespoke dwell and turnround times for individual trains. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 14:23 #46530 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:I don't believe this type of information isn't in the same TT that real signallers use, right alongside similar info about which trains join, divide, etc.take a look at a WTT and you'll find it doesnt show joins and splits (usually). that information will be found in a station working book, sometimes as a direct "must be held for XYZ" but usually via a sheet at the begginning which indicates the extent of time to which the station supervisor is allowed to hold trains for connections, or which services offer guaranteed connections. it certainly doesnt shout out to you without looking. PS. Westbury has TRTS so in this instance i would say more fool you for pulling off without confirmation that the train in question is ready. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Noisynoel, officer dibble |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 14:48 #46531 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Sounds as if the signaller doesn't get a copy of the station working book. Doesn't the left hand know what the right hand's doing?
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 15:25 #46532 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:Sounds as if the signaller doesn't get a copy of the station working book. Doesn't the left hand know what the right hand's doing?he does, but if you reread what i put, situations like you have indicated, dont stick out to you. for instance, in my bristol 1993 SWB, there is a small paragraph on the first page indicating: "Class 2 services Bristol - WSM/Taunton - not to be held for any reason the last service of the day may be held subject to agreement with control other class 2 services where there is an hourly or more frequent service trains must not be held where there is more than an hourly gap, trains may be held for up to five minutes" as you can see, it doesnt jump out at you, per train entry, requiring you to work out service intervals etc. in my carlisle 1973 SWB, there is a table/appendix at the back indicating individual allowances, and guaranteed connections for each train, again taking effort to see, and it doesnt jump out. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 05/07/2013 at 15:26 by jc92 Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 15:47 #46534 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:Interestingly, in my original post in this thread the train in question could not depart for a fixed time after the same train had arrived at the same location. Now, wouldn't it have been easier to specify this as a dwell time in the timetable, rather than resorting to a TT rule that's hidden from the player until the train arrives?Max A quick note about the operation of the mail and parcel trains in this country (and their relationship with SimSig). As far as I understand it, Class1,2 and 5 trains will not depart from a station where they have a scheduled stop until due time. If such a train arrives late the dwell time will be reduced (as long as it doesn't break the default minimum stopping time built into the core code) and will depart at due time. However, a Class 1 mail or parcels will often have a lot of loading/unloading to do and particularly in the case of mail trains, Royal Mail had a contractual entitlement to hold the train for the full scheduled dwell time in order to allow for the loading/unloading. Therefore you can't rely on the times in the TT as the train may arrive late and expect to depart to time; you also have to have a rule to allow for the full dwell time. In pre-1990 TTs there are also some Class 3 or 4 parcels and mails. SimSig will allow these trains to depart before due time, so again you have to set up a rule to allow for the full dwell time to be taken. Finally, many operations in the mail or parcels sorting work prior to loading the train are timed backwards from the due departure time of the train (i.e. you may have a mail train due to depart at 21:50 so the time to load the train and the time to transport the mail/parcels from the sorting office are calculated and the indoor operation then knows it has to have all of the mail/parcels for that train out of the door by say 21:30). If the train is allowed to depart before due time, then that traffic will not be loaded and will fail service so you have to set a rule for the Class3 and 4 mails and parcels that holds their departure until due time. When you click on the TD for the train to show the TT it should show mail or parcels in the description of the train at the top so that you be your indication that there may be some more information you need to establish. As a final comment about your Westbury example, you need to act like the real railway and make a judgement call about whether to hold the train or use F2 to abandon the rule and let the train depart. In your instance, the connection would probably be broken in order to minimise the overall delay and disruption. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 05/07/2013 at 15:48 by postal Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 15:53 #46535 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
Sometimes a timetable writer might have information about Driver allocation, and some drivers change from one train to another at a variety of locations. In this case, rules can tell the trains in the sim to wait until the driver's previous trip has arrived before his next trip will depart.
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 18:03 #46545 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:Sounds as if the signaller doesn't get a copy of the station working book. Doesn't the left hand know what the right hand's doing? When I was in Marylebone box (the 1967 mechanical frame, not the IECC) we certainly didn't have such a book. In fact I'm not sure there ever was such a thing. Part of learning the box (a week on each shift during which we also had to learn the frame and the local instructions) was learning which trains joined & split. Part of the routine was the depot phoning each morning, just as the peak got under way, with information about altered splits and disposal of the units that came out of service after a split. Likewise about 15:30 or so there would be a list of alterations to the standard joins. We just had to jot it all down & work to it; no two days were the same, as the depot supervisors arranged to get sets due maintenance in the right place according to how much work they needed (longer jobs on the stops, quickies at the outer end of the shed). There was also a degree of placing spare units around the rest of the layout so they could be attached in such a way as to be placed for the following day's maintenance requirement. The lads at Euston PSB, with their 'daily orders', had it easy by comparison! Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 18:29 #46547 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
A Professional signaller, such as myself, would never set a route for a train to depart a location unless it was either due to depart that location or had been advised that the train was ready to depart early. To set a route 10 minutes early without this advice being received is asking for trouble. To blame it on a timetable rule because the train would not depart early is passing the buck unfairly, to use an American expression. The Developers come in for a lot of criticism at times but you should remember that their objective is to provide, as realistic as possible, a signalling simulation not a game. Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 18:37 #46548 | |
guyh
54 posts |
Keith - you'll be pleased to know we're even worse at Marylebone now! A recent analysis showed we do approx 30 swaps per day, (usually with less than 10 mins notice I reckon). Maxand. Saying the rules are "unfair" is a little strong! One of the great things about the real life railway is that stuff happens that one person thought was obvious, but no-one else expected - and sometimes it is the signallers that suffer from setting a route then the train not moving. It's great that you're experiencing via the sim the sort of stuff that real signallers suffer, then have to suss out what's going on! I think there is a suggestion in your posts here which I believe should be incorporated, so I have added an entry to the SimSig wish list on the bug board requesting that the timetable shows <something> in the timetable display to denote that a rule exists. Good suggestion. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Signalhunter |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 18:55 #46556 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:A Professional signaller, such as myself, would never set a route for a train to depart a location unless it was either due to depart that location or had been advised that the train was ready to depart early. To set a route 10 minutes early without this advice being received is asking for trouble. To blame it on a timetable rule because the train would not depart early is passing the buck unfairly, to use an American expression. That's not the issue though - the problem is trains waiting, unexpectedly, beyond their booked time. I'm with Max on this one, at least as far as.waiting for connecting trains goes (as opposed to extended dwell times) - if TRTS isn't provided, it's difficult to know whether a train's likely to wait for a late running arrival or not. It'd be less of a problem if there was some way of contacting the driver to replace the signal to Danger  .
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 19:37 #46560 | |
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BoxBoyKit
166 posts |
Afraid I have to agree with the majority, you don't set a route until you know the train is ready to depart. You can then investigate using F2 to find out why the train hasn't operated the TRTS, and in this case, after discovering it's waiting for a connection that could be some way away, you have to go beyond simulation of signalling, and simulate the Controllers and decide to hold the train or cancel the rule and get the train on the go.
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| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 19:44 #46561 | |
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Underwood
748 posts |
For me I have added rule times at stations like Bath Spa to simulate that HST's do spend longer than their booked time due to the doors being left open. If it's a diverted HST going round Bathampton Jct then you'd have to deal with the fact you may as well hold a train coming from Chippenham or cancel the route, though the first option would be better as it would only be about a 5 minute dwell time over the booked 2 minutes. I wouldn't say it's easier to see if it's going to be stopping at the station longer than expected, as Bristol PSB don't know if people are going to leave all the doors on the HST open and make life hell for the platform staff. I add it in as it's not visible and you don't expect it. Another example for a timetable I'm writing is set on the day itself where a HST WILL stop for 25 minutes due to a brake fault. I wouldn't but in the timetable description which one, you'd just know as it will stop at a bizarre location. I've done it because this is exactly what happened that day to that exact train at that exact location, and the real signalers couldn't go 'oh I'll abandon the rule' or 'cancel the timetable so it moves', they had to deal with it. I am in two minds weather to make a second version on the same day without the HST failing I don't know. As the writer I probably won't though as I am replicating that day, not any other day. Log in to reply |
| Timetable Rules unfair to players 05/07/2013 at 21:40 #46579 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Cor, being told about train delays? That's a luxury! Off the top of my head, the various causes for long station stops or section times I've come across have been: * Wheelchair passenger(s) requiring wheelchair ramp * As above, but not making themselves known to station or train staff * One of the above, but the wheelchair saloon/guard's van stops adjacent to the section of platform too thin for the wheelchair ramp to be used, so the train must be shuffled forwards * Large group of passengers * Two large groups organised at each end of the platform ready to board their coaches, only to discover that someone confused their respective coaches and that they must now march through each other on the platform to get to their own coach * Large groups failing to realise that coaches have two or three doors on the platform, not just one * Unexpectedly long stop in section at a request halt * Passenger only requesting a stop just before the departure of the train when the guard's van is marshalled at the rear, requiring the guard to walk to the engine to inform the crew * Various large parcels deliveries (month's supply of chocolate for the station kiosk or something) * Engine getting stuck dead centre (coughcoughSirKeithParkcoughcough) and failing to move forwards for several minutes * Engine trouble of various other descriptions * Sticking brakes * Open doors * Passengers trying to board/disembark a moving train * Passengers going on the track for whatever reason takes their fancy (most recently to collect spent shells from our 1940s battle re-enactment) * Various phone calls to report incidents to someone (although they never bother to report them to me, the signalman...) * Stopping to combat lineside fires * Stopping due to trespassers of various descriptions * Stopping due to the train being shot at * Broken brake/steam heating pipes (those go off with a real BANG, so I hear!) * Brake problems caused by changing from GWR (25 inches Hg for braking) to non-GWR (21 inches Hg) engines and no one remembering to empty the brake cylinders * Staff having a natter and a cup of tea * Staff arriving late on duty (not that I would ever do such a thing) * Ambulance attendance (hey, that's one that Simsig has!) I'm sure I could think up even more "no one told me!" delays if I tried - of course, "signal lamp (arm) failure", "points failure" and "track circuit failure" have also cropped up from time to time! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Josie |